I'm sure some other people have noticed this, but I think part of the issue here is we're putting a square peg in the round hole-while the lack of usable translations might be a partial source of these issues, but it isn't necessarily the correct avenue for resolving them. If you can demonstrate a viable market for specialty TCG products, that would probably be a good place to start.
Allowing 10% Foreign Cards once again
- Thread starter GodBlessAmerica
- Start date
- Status
Reread my post. I'm not wrong, though I think you misunderstood what I meant. When I said every country, I thought it was obvious I meant TCPi supplied countries since I already stated Japan's cards were cheaper and more readily available. So, again, I say, EXCEPT JAPAN, the US is the only country that is limited to ONE language. Yeah, there is Asia Pacific and South Africa. I don't know what the distribution is like there, nor do I know much about OP there. I do know that Asia Pacific actually has a somewhat large OP. But, unlike the US and Europe (and similar to South Africa), I don't think they have a big time distribution deal like Europe and North America. Which, means two things: first, their cards are probably pretty pricey to begin with. Second, without the large OP in those countries, their prices aren't driven as high as they are in the US. Lets be honest, if we didn't have OP and thousands of people needing 4 Mewtwo's, they wouldn't be more than $20 on the high side for a FA. It is unfortunate for them that they have to compete with our prices online in some ways, but its also fortunate for them that what little distribution they do get, doesn't have the player base ours does fighting for the small pool of Mewtwos. If their player base was as large as ours and they didn't (rather, don't, to my knowledge) have great distribution, their prices would be through the roof. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Indonesia or the Phillipines (or some place over there) had like 100 people at their nationals. I'm places like Tiawan's access to cards if far greater than their needs.
And, what I said about Mexico wasn't that they couldn't use Spanish cards, I said they were no longer sold in Mexico (at least, I said that's what I heard).
let's see: when jpn/other language cards were allowed, just how many times did we event staff find translation printouts left on tables, on the floor etc. between rounds?
how many times did we find translations abandoned once pre-reg deckcheck was over, or have to hear the 'i must have lost it' at top cut check?
how many times did we have people begging for us to print out something for them that was THEIR responsibility to take care of?
how many times did we have to ARGUE about what an acceptable translation/reference was with experienced players (or their parents) who should have known better...i.e. no, that printout of a scan from *insert fansite here* is NOT a legal translation?
...way too many. oh, and let's not forget the cute little 'leave a card on the table as my "translation" even though it's not in my deck to influence my opponent's actions' trick...
good riddance to something that wasted way too much event staff time...
jmho
'mom
Just like its those players jobs to keep up with their stuff, it just seems like common sense that handling these situations is part of the staff's job. I am appreciative of staff, to include you, for what you do, but by all accounts, if you don't want to or aren't willing to take on these roles, I'm certain there are tons of up and coming organizers that would gladly do it. Yes, it is a pain and I'm not saying we should make it harder on the staff if we don't have to, but I think you need to remember why you organize: its supposed to be for the players. If the overwhelming majority of players want the cards, I'm not sure why you as an organizers would deny players the fun they desire.
ShadowCard
Active Member
While SD_POkeMom can take rather "worst case scenario" or anti customer service approaches, I'd like to follow up on the idea quoted here.
Who are the "overwhelming majority"? This rule doesn't keep anyone from playing. Has the "overwhelming majority" who has played for 3+ years even seen a card that is not in English?
People post arguments to allow Japanese cards to balance the prices for exceptionally rare cards. Aren't those cards rare for a reason though? Why deflate our secondary market? Does TPCi or P!P even care about the secondary market?
Can this thread be framed so that JPN cards are not included? Or are JPN cards the real goal and including the other languages a method of getting there?
Not allowing French, Spanish, Italian, and other non-Japanese basic energy cards? That is silly
Cyrus
Iron Chef - Master Emeritus
Interesting questions, Shadowcard. They might be directed to chrataxe, but I'll take a shot at a couple...
*Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think TPCi is on record as saying that the secondary market doesn't factor into their business decisions, and rare factors into their competitive play decisions.
*IDK about chrataxe, but for me, every gain that can be made for the North American market (and now, as my attention's been drawn to them, South Africa and Asia Pacific) is a win. Of course, all languages for everyone means that "everyone wins" from my view, but even the US being able to use Spanish and French cards would be a huge boon IMO.
*The cost of the secondary market is a mixed bag to competitive players: good if it encourages growth of the game (or sales for OP); bad if it's a barrier to competitive entry. The inflation of cards like Yanmega and Zone happens only when at Nats/Worlds, but the high cost of cards like Mewtwo and Tropical Beach is a long-term ill.
*Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think TPCi is on record as saying that the secondary market doesn't factor into their business decisions, and rare factors into their competitive play decisions.
*IDK about chrataxe, but for me, every gain that can be made for the North American market (and now, as my attention's been drawn to them, South Africa and Asia Pacific) is a win. Of course, all languages for everyone means that "everyone wins" from my view, but even the US being able to use Spanish and French cards would be a huge boon IMO.
*The cost of the secondary market is a mixed bag to competitive players: good if it encourages growth of the game (or sales for OP); bad if it's a barrier to competitive entry. The inflation of cards like Yanmega and Zone happens only when at Nats/Worlds, but the high cost of cards like Mewtwo and Tropical Beach is a long-term ill.
I have a legitimate question, here.
Why did they ban foreign cards?
I've now been convinced that sales don't really factor into it, but there is OBVIOUSLY a reason for their decision to disallow Japanese cards. They don't just make random changes on a whim to piss people off; they are (usually) smart, and make changes based off of problems that have presented themselves.
I'm willing to be that, for whatever reason, there were lots of problems caused by the allowance of foreign cards. I don't care whether any of you have problems with them. I don't care if none of you noticed problems caused by them. But there must have been problems caused, and those problems had to have been significant enough for a change in the rules.
Multiple organizers have talked about some of these problems. I trust them more than I trust the players when it comes to the problems related to running an event.
Why did they ban foreign cards?
I've now been convinced that sales don't really factor into it, but there is OBVIOUSLY a reason for their decision to disallow Japanese cards. They don't just make random changes on a whim to piss people off; they are (usually) smart, and make changes based off of problems that have presented themselves.
I'm willing to be that, for whatever reason, there were lots of problems caused by the allowance of foreign cards. I don't care whether any of you have problems with them. I don't care if none of you noticed problems caused by them. But there must have been problems caused, and those problems had to have been significant enough for a change in the rules.
Multiple organizers have talked about some of these problems. I trust them more than I trust the players when it comes to the problems related to running an event.
I may be wrong, but I believe a big factor was people who were playing decks that were almost entirely foreign or contained a large amount of different foreign cards. The players thus had to carry around several references, and they used the references in an untimely manner. I'm not sure if this was in order to play the clock or if some players just took an obnoxiously long amount of time to reference a card. Basically some people were carrying around books and whenever they or their opponent needed to read the card, they had to find the correct page... etc.
Like I said that might not be the main they were banned but I know it was certainly a problem. I never saw it being a problem with 10% rule though, and I don't see how even 5% could be bad.
ShadowCard
Active Member
I noticed quite a few people in this thread say "the customer is always right." Retail has moved on to a new slogan: "if you aren't willing to please your customers, someone else will."
But Cyrus, why do you care what languages get to play in South America and Asia Pacific? Why would you--a player in the US--argue for them? Some people will suspect a selfish reason in your motivation.
Obviously the secondary market is not a reason.
Defense of "mom & pop" shops? There is this:
Who are the "overwhelming majority"? Perhaps Europe? This rule hits Europe a lot harder than the US. The foreign language rule had to be revised to better accomidate Europe. Did something happen in Europe?
JPN cards have different backs? If JPN cards were the real target, why eliminate all foreign language cards? Why not just Japanese cards?
Yeah, sure reply
I too think I read that posted here on PokeGym.
I agree. Kids are encouraged to learn foreign languages in schools. If only Pokemon could add that to the reading and math skills that kids get from it.
But Cyrus, why do you care what languages get to play in South America and Asia Pacific? Why would you--a player in the US--argue for them? Some people will suspect a selfish reason in your motivation.
There is a big discussion about the change in the foreign language rule on PokeGym. In it, it was hinted that the decision was made by people higher up than OP. That means that it has nothing to do with people trying to gain an edge in the rules. The TOs trying to support the ban by saying that it has to do with ruleslawyering or careless players come out looking like they are not interested in pleasing their customers--which I think couldn't be further from the truth when it comes to SD_PokeMom :smile:--but they cling to that anyway. Did any of them protest while the rules allowed full usage of foreign language cards? I'd like to see some quotes from back then from them unless they are blindly defending the policy without knowing why.
Obviously the secondary market is not a reason.
Defense of "mom & pop" shops? There is this:
We have all observed that "Big box" stores get product early while the hobby store where I run league gets cards a week late. This reason looks for the ban looks weak.
Who are the "overwhelming majority"? Perhaps Europe? This rule hits Europe a lot harder than the US. The foreign language rule had to be revised to better accomidate Europe. Did something happen in Europe?
JPN cards have different backs? If JPN cards were the real target, why eliminate all foreign language cards? Why not just Japanese cards?
ShadowCard
Active Member
*Correction: in my post above, I misread South Africa as South America. Sorry.
Looking at South Africa, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Singapore, and Australia, is there an available language that makes sense to allow besides English? Portuguese?
The US can make a case for Spanish and French. New Mexico and California has laws providing for both Spanish and English while Spanish is official in Porto Rico; Louisiana for both French and English.
ah.
Looking at South Africa, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Singapore, and Australia, is there an available language that makes sense to allow besides English? Portuguese?
The US can make a case for Spanish and French. New Mexico and California has laws providing for both Spanish and English while Spanish is official in Porto Rico; Louisiana for both French and English.
TPCi accounting and economics are safe as long as Japanese cards and their super-easy-to-get broken cards remain in japan. What I read here is actually true; Europe, Africa and America languages for cards do not have a different back image, that might allow cheating. They buy English cards anyways, because is a general language, so what`s the big deal about not doing business. Take Spain for example, they have no other choice than buying English or French TCG by impotation, since they don`t have OP or editorial Panini printing cards in spanish any longer.
People will always find something to complain about. Pokemon seems to be putting this in place to raise the secondary market value of the cards, not the opposite direction. If they did things that would reduce the value of the cards then people would complain about that too. Overall in my opinion it was definately a good decision to phase out foreign cards.
Miamisportsfan45
Active Member
I would love to see a change in allowing foreign cards. Especially if it's limited to how many you may be allowed. I personally don't see the real issue in it.
jaws_is_ra
Member
They allow all cards printed in TCG but cards printed in the OCG are not allowed in Official TCG Tournaments
All Yu-Gi-Oh TCG cards have the same backing all Yu-Gi-Oh OCG cards have a diffirent backing from TCG cards
When UD ran it you could run a card that was printed in the TCG but not yet released in your country
Now Konami make you wait till the card is printed in your country to use the card.
Other then that is all most the same as before Only TCG cards allowed in TCG tournaments
What I think TPCI should do is
Allow only the following in the USA
English
French
German
Italian
Spanish
Portuguese
If I am right all cards printed in the above all have the same backing but card printed in japanese have a diffirent backing from the others
Mystery Thing
Administrator
It's a poor comparison to try to include French in any possible list of "why can't we use these too?!?!?!111?, because the only reason Canadians can use them is because of Quebec. (Well, and I guess maybe that we do have it as an official language country-wide, but I have my doubts on that one.)
Very, very few people on the west side of the country are fluent enough in French to be able to understand a French card. I'm still waiting for the day that somebody shows up to a tournament here with an entirely French deck just because they can and confuses the fhuoeuhf out of everybody.
The only way I would ever support the reintroduction of any kind of foreign card limit/rule would be if they added on a kicker that explicitly calls for a hard ~minimum~ of a game loss if you don't have the proper translations, with zero exceptions.
Very, very few people on the west side of the country are fluent enough in French to be able to understand a French card. I'm still waiting for the day that somebody shows up to a tournament here with an entirely French deck just because they can and confuses the fhuoeuhf out of everybody.
The only way I would ever support the reintroduction of any kind of foreign card limit/rule would be if they added on a kicker that explicitly calls for a hard ~minimum~ of a game loss if you don't have the proper translations, with zero exceptions.
Cyrus
Iron Chef - Master Emeritus
If this is what it takes to bridge supporters and opponents together, then a minimum game loss is something I'd totally be on board with. Again, if the idea of a minimum game loss seems too squeamish to do for Juniors and Seniors, then the 10% rule could be instated for Masters only, who are presumably adult enough to take game losses.
Nobody is wanting to open the doors for cheaters, or add on another layer of stress for judges. But whenever possible, Play! Pokemon's policies should reflect the ideal state of the game, and that includes allowing for the most resources possible. Of course, players need to make sacrifices and allowances for this too, and should be willing to pay the price (i.e., game losses).
Last edited:
Miamisportsfan45
Active Member
I'm a bit confused. This was about a "minimum" not "entire" deck of "limited" foreign cards. Therefor with a translation, I don't see why any specific language is being targeted as it doesn't matter.
Secondly, with a translation and quick accessibility to these translations, I don't see why it's much of an issue to allow any of this to begin with. The biggest issue I can see the PTO coming across is the probability of fake cards and timing issues. Which are easily solved by raising your hand and "Judge!"
Mystery Thing
Administrator
I'm just referencing whoever it was that said that the US should be allowed French cards because Canada is allowed French cards. Somebody could bring a deck of entirely French cards to a tournament in, say, Vancouver, without any translation cards, and 99% of the people at that tournament would have no ability to read any of the cards. But it would still be legal.
ShadowCard
Active Member
Louisiana also recognizes French. English and French are its de facto administrative state languages. It also has bilingual road signs.
- Status