Coins banned from IL States 2010?
- Thread starter Squirtle
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I'm not see what he says as rules lawyering.
If his opponent is going to flip a coin, he is right to insist that they do it per the rules.
The rules are there for a very important reason; to make cheating harder.
When I flip, it rotates more times than I can count, and that's how a good coin flip should look!
ryanvergel
New Member
jimmy is easily one of my favorite people in the game (in terms of everything he offers to the game, as a player, organizer, judge, vendor, and friend), and i think he has nothing but the best intentions (to make the game the most fair), but i simply disagree with this decision with the way the current usage of dice is.
without the same kind of consistency with coins, i do not like dice as much. i prefer to use a coin. i don't like a decision that would make me use a dice unless it had some kind of solid evidence about dice being less easy to manipulate, and even then- i would want some added reassurance in the form of more consistency about their usage and procedure in the game. handing out game dice to every table that is a nice size and roundness and lightness would be AWESOME. dont roll em on a mat, and we're good to go. at FL events run by Heidi, I know that she specifically hands out clear, rounded, light dice for use other than a coin in top cuts. it allows consistency and assurance that all of the dice are the same and of a type that is good for randomization judged by the head judge. this is also done at nats/worlds, and other PTOs do it as well.
without the same kind of consistency with coins, i do not like dice as much. i prefer to use a coin. i don't like a decision that would make me use a dice unless it had some kind of solid evidence about dice being less easy to manipulate, and even then- i would want some added reassurance in the form of more consistency about their usage and procedure in the game. handing out game dice to every table that is a nice size and roundness and lightness would be AWESOME. dont roll em on a mat, and we're good to go. at FL events run by Heidi, I know that she specifically hands out clear, rounded, light dice for use other than a coin in top cuts. it allows consistency and assurance that all of the dice are the same and of a type that is good for randomization judged by the head judge. this is also done at nats/worlds, and other PTOs do it as well.
@Pop: The part that got me is the "if I dont agree the flips were enough" statement. As I said, anyone has the right to have the coin flipped properly. A player shouldnt be badgered though IMO on "how to flip". I think we all know how to flip a coin. The dictionary spiel should only be used IF a player flips the wrong way. Then you call a judge and explain the proper way. It should be easy to determine if a coin flips enough times. Getting it past 3 is easy. "1,2,3....A, B, C" (Thx Jackson 5)
Keith
JandPDS
New Member
Look with a die a person rolls it in an open palm, drops it to the table, it ounces two or three times and settles on either sn odd number for tails or an even number for heads. This is a fair randomization. Now I have seen many players (mostly younger ones) carefully balance a coin on the edge of thier finger, and flip it over so it rotates 180 degrees and lands on the result that they want. That is what I mean that if I dont agree the coin rotates 2 1/2 times ( that is 900 degrees by the way) I will call a judge over. IF it spins so I cant count it yes its a fair flip, but if I can count the rotations, not a good flip. I never said that I would call a judge over every time. But a coin flip allways leaves room for a Grey area, was it flipped will enough. With a die we do not have that issue. Also metal coins are more fair then plastic as the can bounce anc flip over once they hit the table, The plastic ones are too light and almost always keep the same side donw to the table that it initally landed on. Coins belong in League and Fun play not in premiere events.
For the record I have never once had to call a judge over to watch a coin flip.
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prodigal_fanboy
New Member
I personally dislike the use of those plastic coins.
Granted, this might be a cognitive bias, but it might just be a factor of the scarcity of actual coin usage in competitive play, but the coins I've seen have always had quirky results in use. One person consistently averaging well above 50/50, another below. Granted, HHHHHHHHH is no less odd than HTHTHTHTH, the uniformity of results + gambler's fallacy makes me leery of coins usage.
Granted, this might be a cognitive bias, but it might just be a factor of the scarcity of actual coin usage in competitive play, but the coins I've seen have always had quirky results in use. One person consistently averaging well above 50/50, another below. Granted, HHHHHHHHH is no less odd than HTHTHTHTH, the uniformity of results + gambler's fallacy makes me leery of coins usage.
waynegg
CotD Editor<br>Forum Moderator
You're sure, or you assume that they were. It seems like a direct contradiction of the printed tournament rules for this year. I would be quite interested if Biggie or someone else would have some input on this as coin flipping is as much Pokemon as fireworks are 4th of July. It kinda sets an ugly precedence.
Never mind, I suppose. Still an ugly precedence though. It changes the rules in the big middle of the game (tournament year) so to speak and messes with a lot of people's confidence heading into a tournament with this kind of stipulation.
tehmoe
New Member
confidence in what may i ask? you can't really have confidence in something you don't control, unless you imply that you are "controlling" the flip. Cause it isn't that hard to manipulate coins.
Pokemon Trainer Char
New Member
I personally do not like the use of coins when I play pokemon. Certain coins that are given out with starter decks and other pokemon related products tend to favor one of the two sides. Back when I used to use coins I would always use the Gallade/ Infernape coin because it almost always landed heads while the Arceus coin almost always landed tails. Eventually I got sick of these coin flips and switched to dice because it makes it fair.
waynegg
CotD Editor<br>Forum Moderator
Can always count on YOU to read way too much into things and to try and put people on the defesive or attempt to make them look bad...
I mean people get used to doing things one way and its what they're comfortable with, based off the written rule, and then to up and change something which has been written in stone not to be messed with for 11 years, since the game was first released here, and in the middle of a tournament season where the rules are established well before the start of said season, has the tendency to throw people who play card games (a high percentage of all card game players have OCD) off and it just isn't justified. Want to change the rules? Fine. Do it at the start of the season so everyone is on even ground from the get go. You can't change the rules in the middle of the game.
Besides, what you are implying is wrong. If I'm good at flipping coins and do it in a legal manner (from shoulder height and flipping end over end at least 3 full rotations before it lands), then there is nothing wrong with it. It isn't cheating just because YOU can't do it. I actually got an official ruling on this because of people claiming it is cheating.
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JandPDS
New Member
Yes but dont you see, the fact that you say you are "good' at flipping a coin means the outcome is skill based and not random. That is the very reason why I allways request that my opponets roll a die instead of flip a coin. And this is the reason that coin flip are not allowed at Nationals and Worlds.
Charizard3712
New Member
Well where we play at we are able to either one but the flip coin has to be a current pokemon coin and if we use a die it has to be transparent and has to have round edges
waynegg
CotD Editor<br>Forum Moderator
It could just be that I believe that I'm good at it too. Again you are taking that statement the way you want to take it. At the same time there is nothing officially illegal about it if it were a skill. Ask PCI without using buzz words and they will tell you that as long as the coin is a legal randomizer that is flipped as outlined in the rules there is nothing wrong with it. Period. There's no reason for you to debate this, again, here on the Gym. Ask the people who sell the game and make the rules.
And your opponent has the right to laugh at you and use whatever randomizer is on the game table too. You don't get to dictate the randomizer unless you are the HJ, in which case you wouldn't be playing.
That's just your assumption. You should read post #18 again (if you ever read it in the first place) and you will see it is perfectly fine to use coins at both events. I think I'll take his word over yours. I love when someone asks me to use a different randomizer! When I don't all they think about the rest of the game is that coin instead of what to do next... One was hard headed enough he had to hear it from the Head Judge that you can't make your opponent use the randomizer of your choice.
Get informed and then speak because, no offense, NOTHING you said was accurate.
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If you're going to use the word 'randomizer' so many times in a post, please spell it right.
waynegg
CotD Editor<br>Forum Moderator
LOL! Ya got me. Thanks for helping to prove my point on OCD and card game players. By the way, you should have used the word 'correctly' not 'right' as right, in this case, is wrong.
You physically CAN'T rig a coin. It is merely perception that a coin favors one side over the other.
You CAN however, rig a die.
It's physics and planes and stuff.
People aren't "good" at flipping a coin or rolling a die. People THINK they are "good" at flipping a coin or rolling a die.
I won IL states, and I'm sure that Jimmy was in the wrong. I didn't say anything cause there's no use making a scene. I am usually a coin flipper, that's just what I prefer.
When I got 4th at MO states I got tails on ALL of my fainting spell flips with a coin. When I got 1st at IL states I got only ONE heads on all of my dice rolls. It's all perception.
You CAN however, rig a die.
It's physics and planes and stuff.
People aren't "good" at flipping a coin or rolling a die. People THINK they are "good" at flipping a coin or rolling a die.
I won IL states, and I'm sure that Jimmy was in the wrong. I didn't say anything cause there's no use making a scene. I am usually a coin flipper, that's just what I prefer.
When I got 4th at MO states I got tails on ALL of my fainting spell flips with a coin. When I got 1st at IL states I got only ONE heads on all of my dice rolls. It's all perception.
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