Coins banned from IL States 2010?

[Lawman]

Yes but dont you see, the fact that you say you are "good' at flipping a coin means the outcome is skill based and not random. That is the very reason why I allways request that my opponets roll a die instead of flip a coin. And this is the reason that coin flip are not allowed at Nationals and Worlds.

I guess 'Pop's post @#18 doesn't resonate with you. He is on the rules team. He has been at every Worlds/Nats since PUI took over. He was a Judge under the WOTC time too! He has been HJ at those events before.

The rule has always been that a coin can be flipped. The HJ has the right to disallow a coin, if they determine/think that it is "unbalanced". @Nats/Worlds, PUI (now TPCi) OP has put out a clear die to use for those that ROLL a DIE. Coins were always allowed, unless they were banned earlier, like the Lugia (??) coin that was hollowed out on one side for the figure inside. That flipped goofy!

Keith

 

[Skitty]

1. how? burden of proof. you can't just make some assumption and not show any evidence or argument for it. it is just easier? how do you know?

Back in the Wizards days everyone at the League I went to could get heads every time with the official Pokemon coins. I was board once and fliped 154 coins in a row and got what I called each time (I chose heads or tails randomly and then said it before I fliped it). I finaly got one wrong at the 155th flip. I was using an official Japanese Pokemon plastic coin that came with one of the Gym starter decks. And I'll note that each time I fliped it that it fliped about 5 times and went about one and a half feet in the air. I'm out of plactice but I could do it again with any of the newer coins after about an hour of plactice.
So here's a question; Though I would never do it in a real game (Mostly because I don't use coins), is there anything that would stop me doing it in a tournament? It would flip 5 times in the air and go a foot and a half in the air. Even though it meets the requierments, it would still be in my favor a large amount of the time.

 

[meganium45]

Jimmy was doing what he thought was necessary to make the event as fair as possible.

If this is the biggest beef that he is getting, and he had permission from POP to do this...more power to it.

For the record, I did hand out clear dice at my states that were to be used as the randomizer, but did not take the step of banning coins.

I do like requiring the dice supplied by an neutral source to be used as the official dice.

You like coins? Wait until you see the heads/tails flip coin for the final table at Regionals in STL?

Coin? More like a medal!

Vince

 

[P_A]

Ah but then Vince, they won't use it just in case it damages the cards! LOL. Face it buddy, there's no winning.

Personally I'm not fond of the ban on coins for various reasons, but if it was actually ok'd as was reported earlier, then there's no reason why we shouldn't go along with it. It's not Jimmy who has to take the flack, right? I'm sure TPCi would be more than willing to explain it, but if not, let me ask this question: Did it adversely affect the event? Other than inconveniencing certain players, did the event fall apart because dice HAD to be used? I find it hard to believe it's worth too much fuss at this point.

 

[Lawman]

The HJ always has the last call on rulings at THAT tourney. If Jimmy's decision was to ban coins, whether TPCi was consulted ahead of time or not, it doesn't matter. The tourney is over. If you dont like the decision, email OP.

Keith

 

[meganium45]

Oh, no! We had to use a prescribed randomizer!

How is using a predetermined randomizer unfair?

Does it stop people from using "that" Blissey coin??

Vince

 

[prodigal_fanboy]

You physically CAN'T rig a coin. It is merely perception that a coin favors one side over the other.

Aerodynamics of faces, weight distribution, different densities along the thickness axis can rig coins.

I think nickels have a 70% tails expectancy due to such issues, although that might be an urban legend.

 

[SteveP]

If the PTO got TPCi permission to disallow coins, case closed.

In addition to Lawman's comment about rules lawyering: I once got asked to rule about a dice/coin landing on top of someone's discard pile. The dice/coin landed flat, but the opponent felt that the dice/coin needed to land flat on the table; otherwise, re-roll. Obviously, this was a bad case of rules lawyering because the opponent was unhappy with the "heads" result, and was hoping for the judge to rule a re-roll.

Anyway, as long as randomizers are provided by the PTO, I don't see a big problem in disallowing anything else, though I personally don't see a problem with allowing the TPCi Pokemon coins.

 

[Lawman]

@SteveP: I've been called over on that call before too. Coin/die landed on the deck/discard pile or even just a poke in play. The player in question obv. didnt like the result and HOPED for a reroll/reflip. The rule says it simply has to land in the playing area and have no more than a 10% lean (going on memory on the %).

Keith

 

[dogma]

I wonder why Jimmy thought this was necessary, and why POP allowed it, even if this does not mean precedent.

People have a right to know if their method of randomsing is no longer going to be allowed in a tournament... (and shouldn't it be consistent?)

I don't want this to turn into another rant about randomising (wow that was boring) but yeah, isn't this still unanswered?

 

[waynegg]

@SteveP: I've been called over on that call before too. Coin/die landed on the deck/discard pile or even just a poke in play. The player in question obv. didnt like the result and HOPED for a reroll/reflip. The rule says it simply has to land in the playing area and have no more than a 10% lean (going on memory on the %).

Keith

It used to be 15˚, but now it is stated as being as flat as possible.

 

[SteveP]

I wonder why Jimmy thought this was necessary, and why POP allowed it, even if this does not mean precedent.

People have a right to know if their method of randomsing is no longer going to be allowed in a tournament... (and shouldn't it be consistent?)

I don't want this to turn into another rant about randomising (wow that was boring) but yeah, isn't this still unanswered?

Inquiry minds want to know. Why? So we can have an endless, unresolveable debate.

It really should not be that important to the players so long as the PTO provides the universally-accepted randomizers.

 

[Pidgeotto Trainer]

I also do not trust coins. I think it is far more possible to have a practiced coin-flip method that will gets a heads/tails more than 50% of the time. I don't think you could do such a thing with dice, at least nearly as easily. There are people who practice coin flips. You introduce some practiced skill to this, they are no longer a randomizer, and that PUI document quoted in this thread talks about randomizers. Dice are the more 'random' randomizer.

 

[Ditto]

Inquiry minds want to know. Why? So we can have an endless, unresolveable debate.

It really should not be that important to the players so long as the PTO provides the universally-accepted randomizers.

What happens when a TO doesn't provided a randomizer but bans coins? Now I did not correctly bring my tournament supplies.

When you make rules you have to view the problem abstractly, not just in practical terms. The point is that TCPi has made a rule that all players should be able to follow, and suddenly a TO is going against these rules. Did Jimmy actually get permission? Maybe, though we don't know for sure. (Knowing him I'd say probably ) If so, then that's a horrible decision made by TCPi. You shouldn't officially give certain tournaments special treatment. If TCPi wants to make a change then change it, but don't give special fragmented treatment to events.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

I also do not trust coins. I think it is far more possible to have a practiced coin-flip method that will gets a heads/tails more than 50% of the time. I don't think you could do such a thing with dice, at least nearly as easily. There are people who practice coin flips. You introduce some practiced skill to this, they are no longer a randomizer, and that PUI document quoted in this thread talks about randomizers. Dice are the more 'random' randomizer.

There is no such thing as "more" or "less" random. It is either random or not random.

 

[ryanvergel]

I also do not trust coins. I think it is far more possible to have a practiced coin-flip method that will gets a heads/tails more than 50% of the time. I don't think you could do such a thing with dice, at least nearly as easily. There are people who practice coin flips. You introduce some practiced skill to this, they are no longer a randomizer, and that PUI document quoted in this thread talks about randomizers. Dice are the more 'random' randomizer.

People practice dice rolling techniques as well. See:

Vegas Craps
"dice" games, where people will practice rolling combinations to win money

Show us how it is a worse randomizer or easier to manipulate besides complete and utter speculation, please. You're just speculating, and are not offering anything substantial.

 

[SteveP]

What happens when a TO doesn't provided a randomizer but bans coins? Now I did not correctly bring my tournament supplies.

Well yeah, that would be a problem.

I've seen how the Pokemon coins are minted such that the diameter of the heads side is slightly smaller than the diameter of the tails side. Because of that imbalance, I suppose you could mathmetically prove a bias in the randomization. I suppose you could also find a rare player or two who've mastered the ability to flip more heads than tails. Anything is possible, I suppose.

Anyway, after being a software engineer for so many years, absolute, unbias randomization that is 100% fool-proof is an unattainable pipe dream, ESPECIALLY in my digital world. :thumb:

 

[Ditto]

Well yeah, that would be a problem.

I've seen how the Pokemon coins are minted such that the diameter of the heads side is slightly smaller than the diameter of the tails side. Because of that imbalance, I suppose you could mathmetically prove a bias in the randomization. I suppose you could also find a rare player or two who've mastered the ability to flip more heads than tails. Anything is possible, I suppose.

Anyway, after being a software engineer for so many years, absolute, unbias randomization that is 100% fool-proof is an unattainable pipe dream, ESPECIALLY in my digital world. :thumb:

Actually, those imperfection do not have any result on a coin flip. (http://www.stat.berkeley.edu/~nolan/Papers/dice.pdf)

However, as a computer science major I share your feelings on what is actually "random". :wink:

 

[PokePop]

I wonder why Jimmy thought this was necessary, and why POP allowed it, even if this does not mean precedent.

Until I hear from Jimmy or POP, I am making no assumption about it having been approved.
My understanding from discussions with POP in the past is that Japan would not approve such a change, so if it were approved, that would be a big deal.

My thinking is that this may be a miscommunication where, like at some Nats and Worlds, if a dice were used as a randomizer, then it would have to be the supplied one. I suspect that using a coin was still legal.
But I could be wrong.
We are all discussing this with second and third hand information.

 

[dogma]

Inquiry minds want to know. Why? So we can have an endless, unresolveable debate.

It really should not be that important to the players so long as the PTO provides the universally-accepted randomizers.

Yeah, alright, but just this thread proves that people want to know...

Until I hear from Jimmy or POP, I am making no assumption about it having been approved.
My understanding from discussions with POP in the past is that Japan would not approve such a change, so if it were approved, that would be a big deal.

My thinking is that this may be a miscommunication where, like at some Nats and Worlds, if a dice were used as a randomizer, then it would have to be the supplied one. I suspect that using a coin was still legal.
But I could be wrong.
We are all discussing this with second and third hand information.

...including some important people.

Well I guess we wait until we get some better info then

 

[Ditto]

if[/b] a dice were used as a randomizer, then it would have to be the supplied one. I suspect that using a coin was still legal.
But I could be wrong.
We are all discussing this with second and third hand information.

As I won the event I was most definitely there. Coins were not allowed. (http://doeiqts.is-a-geek.com/IL State Championship Flyer.pdf)

Now if you mean the talk between Jimmy and TCPi, that of course we don't know.

Do I think this caused anyone to lose matches they would have otherwise won? No, of course not.

Overall, this particular incident didn't really have an effect. Jimmy is an amazing PTO and I applaud his efforts for this game. However, I still believe that he (or TPCi if he actually did get permission) is in the wrong on this issue and someone from TPCi needs to make a firm and clear stance on whether something like this can happen in the future. It's the next tournaments that I'm worried about, not how one was run behind us.