Donking, and why it is suddenly a big concern for the community

[poinko]

The same could be said about any deck. How hard is it to say take out or Polterguiest. SP offers plenty of opitions far more so than i would say a Machamp deck would offer. Playing SP mirror is incredibly skill orenitied I mean granted there is some sakeing in it but it happens in all match ups.

Well yeah, that's my point. SP offers what could be too many options, and since SP Pokemon are lumped together in a kind of 'secondary' Pokemon type (like Dark Pokemon were), there's a lot of SP-specific Trainers and Supporters that go along with it. SP are almost kind of like a sub-game within a game; you're not going to be able to use cards like PokeTurn or Power Spray in just any deck; it's going to be a SP specific deck.

Regular Pokemon cards are afforded some similar cards, but with some kind of drawback: Super Scoop Up demands a flip. There was Goop-Gas Attack, but that card's long since been rotated. You can shut off an SP's trainers, but only with a Stage 2 Vileplume that shuts off yours as well, instead of a Basic Pokemon with a Metal Energy attached. It's this kind of toolbox where decks like, well, Toolbox get their name from. A lot of non-SP decks aren't afforded the same control and basic power that SP decks provide, which is why SP decks are a favorite among tournament players.

A SP mirror match is going to take knowing how an SP deck works because you'll have to maneuver your own around it, try to deny the opponent of what he needs while getting your attackers out first; but that's the basic concept of SP decks in the first place. Generally speaking, I mean more playing SP against any deck other than SP.

People complain that SP is what's killing Pokemon, or that donking is what's killing Pokemon. It's neither. SP is a dominant deck simply because of how good it is, and how easily it counters what most other decks can throw at it. Donking is just simply another method of winning. There's not really much that can be done about it until the sets get rotated, and it's pretty evident that PCL is trying to fix it by the new rules coming up. Wait it out a bit longer; Pokemon's been through worse than this. okeball:

 

[Porii Sames]

^Just wondering, but how are the new rules nerfing donking?

Cuz it said "1st turn Trainer turn", and that would help Donk Decks since other decks don't use necessarily as many trainer cards to help vs. donks (Vilegar, Machamp, SP to an extent).

 

[vaporeon]

I say Donks suck but like everyone here said, the rules allow for them. What needs to happen is the rules need to change to make donking harder to pull off.

1- Make it to where you lose at the end of your turn if you have no pokemon in play. That way when your opponent KOs you last Pokemon, you get 1 last chance to pull something off.

2- Ether disallow the player going first from attacking or disallow both players from attacking on their first turns.

3- Allow the use of any trainer card first turn OR only the use of supporter cards first turn.

4- Just make it where you can't KO your opponents only in play Pokemon on turn 1.

Really, any of these can happen.

 

[Porii Sames]

Again, if you don't like donks...

play cards to help stop them

3 is already in Japan, and if anything, it helps donks. Few decks run as many draw trainers as donk dex, so they can be donked easier.

 

[Scipio]

Again, if you don't like donks...

play cards to help stop them

I've just had about enough of this argument of yours. Even with all the cards in the world that stop donks, THEY STILL OCCUR.
Let me give you a modern day textbook example.

I played Quad Uxie at league for testing. My opponent played LuxChomp. He started with a Luxray, drew into Dragonite FB and Call Energy'd for Garchomp and Bronzong.
So here I am staring down a field of 2 80 HP, 1 90 HP and 1 100 HP poke. You'd think he's safe, right?
Oh boy how wrong could you be. I started my antics and by Junk Arm discarding Pluspowers, I kept 1 belt and 1 Pluspower attached to Uxie. Crobats first killed Garchomp, then they killed Luxray, he sent up Dragonite, I attached Cyclone Energy and played Seeker for game. THAT IS HOW STUPID DONKS ARE THESE DAYS.
I pulled donks like that with Kingdra - yeah sure have your 2 pokes. I'll Seeker one and Dragon Steam/Pump your active for 80/90 damage (including Spray Splash/Belt). Donks like that cannot be stopped no matter how many donk-preventing cards you play.

Far as SP arguments go, all that I wanted to say has been said already. If SPs had the same support but were their proper stage...yeah, one can dream.

 

[baby mario]

3 is already in Japan, and if anything, it helps donks. Few decks run as many draw trainers as donk dex, so they can be donked easier.

The JPN rule about playing Trainers on your first turn is for their HGSS-on format which comes in with their Black and White set.

No Uxie, No Sableye. No BTS. No Crobat/PokeTurn. Not even that stupid Beedrill G

The ruling on Rare Candy has also been changed. You can't use it to evolve a Basic on the turn you play it.

None of this 'helps' donks. Again, you are spreading misleading information.

 

[Jaeger]

I am a bored teenager with a lot of free time.

They have an RTC here for a reason...Random Topics. I post random topics there. A lot of people do.

I never start arguements for the sake of arguing. I try not to argue normally, it's just everyone seems to disagree with me.

I have experience playing SP, just not Palkia Lock. I stated I hadn't built the deck at least 3 times in that thread, and told him not to take my word on the topic. BM was talking about Palkiaplume, which he hasn't played, but I have. He has apparently played Palkia Lock, but I haven't.

I suggest a life, there really great. I mean your what 14? You should be out having the time of your life. Its true what people say High School and College really are what you make of them. This is honest advice, I'm in college now which I love but there is something to be said about high school there is less reposibilty, less work, less demands on you. You really need to try and enjoy it. Everyone disagrees with you because you post down right stupid things and don't have anything to back them half the time. We've all heard your arguments about donks, your view point is simply wrong you just post it a billion times. Its to the point now where nobody cares, and for me personally I don't even want to come on this website any more. Becuase I know I'm going to have to read some post you made, get angry for how wrong it is and than I have to write a response while continually reminding myself your 14 and editing my posts so I don't end up with infraction points. You can say haters going to hate. But truely look at this and ask yourself why do a lot of poster feel this way and repeatly tell you the same things.

 

[the_sniper]

I suggest a life, there really great. I mean your what 14? You should be out having the time of your life. Its true what people say High School and College really are what you make of them. This is honest advice, I'm in college now which I love but there is something to be said about high school there is less reposibilty, less work, less demands on you. You really need to try and enjoy it. Everyone disagrees with you because you post down right stupid things and don't have anything to back them half the time. We've all heard your arguments about donks, your view point is simply wrong you just post it a billion times. Its to the point now where nobody cares, and for me personally I don't even want to come on this website any more. Becuase I know I'm going to have to read some post you made, get angry for how wrong it is and than I have to write a response while continually reminding myself your 14 and editing my posts so I don't end up with infraction points. You can say haters going to hate. But truely look at this and ask yourself why do a lot of poster feel this way and repeatly tell you the same things.

AMEN!!

This is good, sound advice- use it wisely porii! Or don't , and keep looking like an idiot!

 

[gallade]

I suggest a life, there really great. I mean your what 14? You should be out having the time of your life. Its true what people say High School and College really are what you make of them. This is honest advice, I'm in college now which I love but there is something to be said about high school there is less reposibilty, less work, less demands on you. You really need to try and enjoy it. Everyone disagrees with you because you post down right stupid things and don't have anything to back them half the time. We've all heard your arguments about donks, your view point is simply wrong you just post it a billion times. Its to the point now where nobody cares, and for me personally I don't even want to come on this website any more. Becuase I know I'm going to have to read some post you made, get angry for how wrong it is and than I have to write a response while continually reminding myself your 14 and editing my posts so I don't end up with infraction points. You can say haters going to hate. But truely look at this and ask yourself why do a lot of poster feel this way and repeatly tell you the same things.

Im not sure how to fill these 17 characters. But wow, this is really the truth.

---------- Post added 12/30/2010 at 10:30 AM ----------

Oh, i have an idea. Porri, go take debate class.

 

[Benzo]

As with all games- they have rules. And with all games- there are winners and losers.
You show up to play a game- you have a 50/50 win chance.
No matter how much skill you have, you can not control EVERY aspect of the game.
Those aspects are what put the game being played into the "chance" factor area of the games limits.
You aslo have a choice of whether or not to play the game.
The reasons for playing a game SHOULD BE FOR FUN- as that is the true intention of playing a game.
Now- donk or no donk- YOU still make a choice to play a game that has structure and rules, limits and restrictions, and "chance" factors-

Now ask yourself- Can you play a game, be a good sport, have fun, play by the rules, accept the "chance" factors, and see the true intention of a game at face value of designed for fun with friends?

If you are not ready to play a game with a friends/among friends that has rules, structure, "chance", some skill, some luck- AND HAVE A GOOD TIME, being a good sport-
Then make the choice to find something that fits into your definition of fun.

Pokemon TCG= fun, provided in the best way possable, while not able to please EVERY ONE- but lasting long enough to be around 10+ years of SOME fun- with the good and the bad.
GOOD JOB TCPI for doing what you can to make a game that has the soul purpose of giving us all something to do for fun.
Donks included. Hay- life is life, even if I get donked once in a while. No tears here, just accepting on of the many rules in the game of life

 

[Yoshi-]

I am ready to play a game, unfortunatly my opponent wont let me play.

 

[ceNt]

As with all games- they have rules. And with all games- there are winners and losers.
You show up to play a game- you have a 50/50 win chance.
No matter how much skill you have, you can not control EVERY aspect of the game.
Those aspects are what put the game being played into the "chance" factor area of the games limits.
You aslo have a choice of whether or not to play the game.
The reasons for playing a game SHOULD BE FOR FUN- as that is the true intention of playing a game.
Now- donk or no donk- YOU still make a choice to play a game that has structure and rules, limits and restrictions, and "chance" factors-

Now ask yourself- Can you play a game, be a good sport, have fun, play by the rules, accept the "chance" factors, and see the true intention of a game at face value of designed for fun with friends?

If you are not ready to play a game with a friends/among friends that has rules, structure, "chance", some skill, some luck- AND HAVE A GOOD TIME, being a good sport-
Then make the choice to find something that fits into your definition of fun.

Pokemon TCG= fun, provided in the best way possable, while not able to please EVERY ONE- but lasting long enough to be around 10+ years of SOME fun- with the good and the bad.
GOOD JOB TCPI for doing what you can to make a game that has the soul purpose of giving us all something to do for fun.
Donks included. Hay- life is life, even if I get donked once in a while. No tears here, just accepting on of the many rules in the game of life

Woah, great post there! I agree, donks aren't the end of the world. And if you really don't like them, no one's making you play!

 

[Yoshi-]

Yeah, what a great post, why wogame instead. uld you complain if you dont even get to draw a card in a game about skills and strategy, and why would you try to fix a problem or try to fix it if you can just quit the game

Is this how you approach issues?

 

[Raen]

Yeah, I just have to say, the argument of "Well, Pokemon is a good game and has been a good game even with donks, so everything fine" is silly. I love Pokemon; it's one of the best TCGs out there, and incredibly fun, despite donks. But less donks would improve the game, I believe, and so I'll argue for that. That doesn't mean I'm whining. It doesn't mean I hate Pokemon. It doesn't mean I will/want to quit. It just means there's something I see that could be improved.

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

I think that even the folks who dislike donks don't see them going away entirely. Anyone who has played the game for any length of time in nearly ever format has gotten donked at some point. It's the frequency and types of donks availible in the current format that are the issue.

 

[cpeterik]

I think it would seriously be a good idea to institute 1 "opt-mulligan" per game. Hands with no basics would mulligan as they do, be shown to the opponent and opponent would draw 1 card. However, each player would also have the option to mulligan their hand away once per game without revealing it to the opponent. If they do, the opponent would then have the same option to draw 1 card. This would eliminate the punishment a player goes through for strategically playing certain cards.

 

[Benzo]

@yoshi- If your question is aimed at me about "Is this how you approach issues"-

Let me put it this way- YES.

Every day in my life I MAKE CHOICES-

I CHOOSE to look at life from two points of view before I make a choice. WHEN I MAKE A CHOICE- I use my freedom of CHOICE to do what I think is worth my time.

To argue or debate about an aspect of a game that I have seen change and grow over time- what should I expect in the future about the game? MORE CHANGES AND GROWTH- and I choose to accept those changes and enjoy the growth.

Too say "OH, geez, another comment about how great a game is while I do not like the donk part blah blah blah" is IMO- a pointless remark about an opinion that IS YOURS or ANYONE elses freedom to express DISLIKE for something.

Feel free to continue to express how much you do not like a "donk" but don't be a "donkey" about something that there is no rule agianst.

Just do not expect that more complaints are going to have an impact on the game about this issue, why not try to give ideas on how to solve the issue- as complaining about it is not as constructive when in a game there is no rule that say's "NO DONK'S ALLOWED".

 

[Jaeger]

I think it would seriously be a good idea to institute 1 "opt-mulligan" per game. Hands with no basics would mulligan as they do, be shown to the opponent and opponent would draw 1 card. However, each player would also have the option to mulligan their hand away once per game without revealing it to the opponent. If they do, the opponent would then have the same option to draw 1 card. This would eliminate the punishment a player goes through for strategically playing certain cards.

This. It adds another layer of skill, cuts down on donks. Win Win

 

[vaporeon]

This. It adds another layer of skill, cuts down on donks. Win Win

I agree with this post. They should allow at least one per game.

 

[Raen]

I agree with this post. They should allow at least one per game.

Since everyone else is agreeing, I"ll all concur. I'd love 1 optional mulligan, a great way to reduce bad starts, while still being something of a risk.