Jimmy Ballards guide to a Good Rogue deck...

[PlanTita]

Thank U So Much!!

What a wonderful post!!:thumb:
Receive a Huge Hug for a complete House of Mexican Poke Players!
We began to play just a few months ago, February actually!
Felt so good to read on those steps some that without playing with people out of this house, were so obvious to us!

We're so excited to know you people! TCG keeps us even more closer, so we're training to attend some US Pokémon tournaments next year.

XOXO
PlanTita (a.k.a little plant)

 

[SLOW DECK]

Step 7) KEEP IT SECRET!!! This is really important in playing a rogue deck. If you let your secret out, people will find the counter to it. Most rogue decks win events on the surprise factor. If you happen to win another event with it after the surprise factor has worn off, you have actually made yourself a new rogue archetype. Now play it all the time. It will become part of you as the season goes on. The more you play your deck, the more you become comfortable with it. Understanding the matchups combined with a clear understanding of your deck, will usually net you a win.

Difference between red face paint and Secret Deck.

BDIF - Big Deck in Format Arch Type, and Dominating
Arch-Type - With most cards in the deck commonly understood in there, but maybe not dominating.
Secret Deck - This is the Arthimetic, Destiny, Ambush, and Rai-Eggs is that it is played by a large group of non-co-conspiritors. (Non-co-conspiritors meaning they got a list and ran it, had nothing to do with the build of the deck.) Several of Decks obviously fall into this. Arthimetic was one of these decks, and since the format was about to change, Jimmy obviously wanted this great meta-game call to be played, and he was quite generous with the deck list.
red face paint is a deck that only you and maybe a few of your play testing comrades have seen. Eeveeloutions is one of these decks for Jimmy. It's a deck that you don't go spreading around even if you did well with it. KEEP IT SECRET, might really mean, DON'T BRAG ABOUT IT AND POST THE LIST. red face paint is a deck that an average player might not expect to see, and might under estimate.

Finally, Playing red face paint by definition is your own build.

 

[G-Dog4377]

red face paint is a deck that only you and maybe a few of your play testing comrades have seen. Eeveeloutions is one of these decks for Jimmy. It's a deck that you don't go spreading around even if you did well with it. KEEP IT SECRET, might really mean, DON'T BRAG ABOUT IT AND POST THE LIST. red face paint is a deck that an average player might not expect to see, and might under estimate.

Finally, Playing red face paint by definition is your own build.

Didn't have to capitalize the hint; I got it loud and clear. Would you rather I take the list off? I really did want to help. I put my record at states and regionals there to show that was successful and not a failure, not to brag.

 

[MetronOob]

So let me get this straight... If I use a gardevoir, magmortar, feraligatr, banette or any of the other 20+ card that are being played, that makes it a NON-Rogue deck? You seem to really be limiting my card pool.

So what exactly is your idea of rogue, cause obviously I dont know what I am talking about.

Jimmy

I knew I was not stating my point quite correctly when I was typing it, but I didn't have time to re-figure it. I didn't mean established decks so much as the established techs/engines you are talking about. It seems that maybe you don't have a full understanding of running rogue. Most often a good rogue deck will operate differently against the different decks it faces. It is up to the player to identify his/her opponents deck and direct his/her deck properly as quickly as possible. That absolutely does take practice! Often times decks like GG/PLOX or Rock Lock (of days past) run exactly the same every single time, but good Rogue decks often (almost by definition) need to be more versatile. But by all means continue to not practice.

All I am going to say it not to be so sarcastic about it sounds like you are trying to be mean to them. Come on that’s childish isn’t it?

 

[dld4a]

All I am going to say it not to be so sarcastic about it sounds like you are trying to be mean to them. Come on that’s childish isn’t it?

Not exactly sure what you mean here by "mean" here, but rest assured neither one of us are saying anything that could be correctly interpreted as such.

 

[MetronOob]

Not exactly sure what you mean here by "mean" here, but rest assured neither one of us are saying anything that could be correctly interpreted as such.

Yes I realized that after I posted it. I tried to delete it, but I couldn’t find out how.

 

[raicario]

Kudos on a great article!

 

[ashinto]

i love how you could give anyone a guild to build rogue decks Jimmy. i actually will never play an archtype ever unless i make it. and no one shall know about my nationals deck psyoas (i will give you the name and that is all).

 

[mca3]

Difference between red face paint and Secret Deck.

red face paint is a deck that only you and maybe a few of your play testing comrades have seen. Eeveeloutions is one of these decks for Jimmy. It's a deck that you don't go spreading around even if you did well with it. KEEP IT SECRET, might really mean, DON'T BRAG ABOUT IT AND POST THE LIST. red face paint is a deck that an average player might not expect to see, and might under estimate.

Finally, Playing red face paint by definition is your own build.

Well, see I posted the Glaceon/Empo idea on here back in Early April, and NOW everyone is trying to take it away from me. Saying well its a Obvious Combo, but BEFORE the Theme decks came out, everyone said they didnt understand how it would work. Yes, it seems OBVIOUS NOW, but back then everyone didnt understand the concept of it. They said just because I use Empo MD in a deck, means its NOT Rogue. I havent seen OR heard anyone else make that deck Before me, so that is why I claimed it.
Its just like Jimmy using Banette with his Techs/Additions, I have the SAME concept.

I always TRY to build decks that NOBODY else has used or I havent seen. I will even go on BOTH GYM's and Beach's Searches, to see if anyone has posted the deck in the past to keep from COPYing a OLD combo/deck. I have had a Rogue mentalitiy ever since I started playing/building back in early December 2007. I REALLY love building decks, but I hate when everyone Bashes MY decks/ideas that I have worked so hard on. Especially by players that have not taken the time to build their OWN decks for themselves. I dont mind comments, but BASHING is something completely different.

With that being said, Rogue decks can use pokemon that are commonly used like Mag Or Gallade, but with YOUR OWN ideas. The format is ALREADY limited as it is, Rogue decks are already HARD enough to build, why make it harder on us. I LOVE running Empoleon, he is MY favorite. I Started running him back in late December, I even traded a Charizard * DF for 3 Empos, I wanted them that bad! I have ran him with SO MANY combos, and was the ONLY person running him at SC States, becuase he was considered DEAD!!! Ambush had Empo, and was considered Rogue, WHY arent MY Empo decks???
Jimmy has truly built some great Rogue decks as I have Studided on him, and I want to one day, make a deck that does the same.

GOOD LUCK in the Future, Jimmy!
Michael A.:thumb:

 

[Dragon100]

Jimmy You Are Superb!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I Used Your Arithmetic And It Can Take A Magmortar+gg Deck Very Well.you Are The Best!!!

 

[OllieK]

yh what the above said...LOL

Wow thts really inspired me to make a rogue deck!!

Iv'e never spoken to u jummy but Iv'e heard tht u make the best rogue decks ever!!

Hope to speak to u soon!

Olliek

 

[dark celebi]

8) Make sure the deck you are playing is actually a good deck.. You will always need to beat other decks than the 2 you prepared for.

 

[jazee]

But What About Us Newbies?

I've helped my kids move from the collecting aspect of the Pokemon TCG to the playing aspect in the past month or two, helping them buying cards they (think) they need, helping them (and myself) learn the rules. Going to league days/nights. They've won probably half or more of their matches with very little experience, showing that either that the league players are not all that skilled and/or at the local league level the luck of the draw of the cards is as much of a factor as deckbuilding and playing skills.

I find this 'Rogue' aspect to the game fascinating though. What is being referred to as the meta game/deck, etc., I'm assuming is that once someone finds a deck that is a consistent winner, then everyone starts to use it. So the Rogue deck is using cards that you typically don't see to beat the most popular decks.

I'm an analyst by trade. I've got the entire TCG card stats from Pokepedia in Excel. I'm building formulas to calculate scores based on Stage, HP, average attack strength factored with number of energies required and a couple other factors. But I fully realize that there is an entire other aspect to selecting the right cards and that is SYNERGY. It's not just about the math. I imagine synergy comes with either much more experience learning what cards work together (learning their special attacks) in the best in combination, or simply going to a deckbuilding review forum and just copying a veteran player's good decks. The latter is much less rewarding of course as I agree with the author of this thread, the process of building and testing new, original, 'rogue' decks is more fun then winning in itself.

So I know I'm way over my head here in this thread, but thought I'd ask 'the pros' here what your best advice for someone starting out like us is, aside from 'play more', when it comes to deckbuilding with a preference to not play the exact same same cards as everyone else.

I understand the simple deckbuilding strategies where you have multiples of only two Pokemon evolution lines, use Rare Candy, and an understanding of the most valuable trainer cards, etc. But what I'm trying to figure out is how are we going to have the best chance of building really good decks without spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars on cards (multiple Lv.X and other powerful Ultra Rares) and without just copying someone else's tried and tested deck? It has to come from inside information on people who have already tried lots of decks doesn't it? Or simulation playing?

Also we are not buying anything that is EX (or not D & P) since it is all rotated out in less than 2 months. (Time to dump those EX cards on Ebay in my opinion.)

One suggestion was to make photo copies of cards. But we don't have that much free time to play at home. We're obviously not going to bring photocopied cards to the league nights.

With my mathematical analysis it has us stocking up on the following:

Colorless: Chansey, Latias, Latios, Lugia, Miltank, Porygon

Dark: Darkrai. And who else? There are very few dark Pokemon it seems that are very good but they seem good from a lack of weakness and or resistance standpoint/

Fire: Ho-Oh, Infernape, Moltres, and Magmortar

Grass: Torterra, and who else?

Lightning: Zapdos, Raiku, Manectric

Water: Articuno, Palkia, Empoleon

These were all chosen based on analysis of stats. How we will combine them in a deck is to be determined.

Essentially or we going to the wrong road picking these types of Pokemon or is this a good base strategy to start experimenting with trying to build very competetive decks? Any suggestions to help accelerate us on deckbuilding is much appreciated. We'd love to build a Rogue deck that performs well. But maybe the bottom line is we don't have the time to really do this on our own and should just enjoy the game and not focus on over analyzing our decks?

 

[Banger162]

Hey Jazee, nearly two weeks and no response to your post. Maybe this is the wrong place for newbies. I am a newbie and have a lot to learn. I've been helping my daughter build decks out of the cards we pull from boosters as opposed to buying individual cards to build a particular deck. After reading Jimmy's article and many of the responses, I see now that we need to approach it differently. I have noticed at league play that the G&G decks beat everyone. My daughter and I have enjoyed building the decks around a theme. That's why they rarely win. Winning hasn't been my daughter priority in the game, but I know that will change soon or she'll lose interest.

 

[jazee]

My gut tells me your comment is spot on. I realized you can just go to places on sites where users rate decks and just find out what the current 'winning' decks are. That's no fun. I prefer to use the pokepedia website to do searches for individual pokemon based on criteria and then build decks around that. Of course the thing that gets left out is I don't pay attention to the particulars of the attack, just the HP, average damage, energy required and weakness and resistance for the Pokemon. Then after I've got multiples of the cards that faired well in my search, I start to look for what I think are good combinations.

I give my kids just general guidelines like, pick 2-4 different pokemon at most and build your deck around them. The problem is the kids generally don't think about having multiples of say their Lv.x cards. They are expensive is one thing but if they focused their collection from more of a deckbuilding perspective, they would then just buy multiples and have a narrower, but deeper collections instead of a shallow, wide collection which is not good for deck building.

The bottom line is I'd prefer us to win based on decks we thought up instead of the decks that are widely considered the top decks. That would make getting a good draw and beating the established decks (aka archetypes?) so much more rewarding. I think this is what is essentially termed a red face paint deck? Someone eventually finds that magic combination that beats the established deck, I think termed Archetype?

By the way, I'm so new, I don't even remember what G&G means? Gallade and Gardevoir? In our league we see a variety of types being played but I'm seeing on average more Leaf types and Psychic type cards in decks. Psychic seems to have increased as of recently. I'm surprised I don't see much fire at all. I thought a lot of the fire types were big favorites with all the kids?

Hey Jazee, nearly two weeks and no response to your post. Maybe this is the wrong place for newbies. I am a newbie and have a lot to learn. I've been helping my daughter build decks out of the cards we pull from boosters as opposed to buying individual cards to build a particular deck. After reading Jimmy's article and many of the responses, I see now that we need to approach it differently. I have noticed at league play that the G&G decks beat everyone. My daughter and I have enjoyed building the decks around a theme. That's why they rarely win. Winning hasn't been my daughter priority in the game, but I know that will change soon or she'll lose interest.