Yes. That quote refers to the fact that some Pokémon are going to win you battles, and some won't. As much as someone may like Beedrill, for example, they're likely to have to not use it if they want to win. Some Pokémon just won't win at a competetive level, and that means not using them.
Lets talk about the bans people put on the Pokemon games
- Thread starter vaporeon
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vaporeon
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I play the game the way its suppose to be played. No I don't use everything in the game but I play with my favorites. I don't see any Pokemon as Legendary because in the game they are just Pokemon and nothing more and banning them because they are "one of a kind and unique" is wrong and banning event Pokemon is wrong just because they are not available to all players. Its just like saying ban all Promo and POP cards because everyone can't get them.
When you set tournament rules, you make them so everyone can play if the want to and allow everything. Luck is a big part of the game, take it out and your playing Final Fantasy, Pokemon style and the person who shows the most power wins.
I would think that a modified format for Pokemon would be for the advance players(not that we have any) to show the most skill, just like the computer players in the games(Battle Frontier, Stadium, PBR,etc) and play skillfully any you all don't encourage that. You all want Pokemon with double weakness so you ban the Lati@s, you ban DT so your sweeper can't be stop by a weaker Pokemon, you all ban OHKO's you your wall and tanks don't die in one hit but it is okay to do OHKO attacks that do damage and so on. If anything, us "opened minded" player play a modified version of the game as you all play with "shortcut" to make battles easier for you and call us newbies because we don't play the way you do. That was the problem with the card game. I beat the all the net-decks the people play with and using a deck that I made up and had to make a new on every format and all you did was build the deck that wins, then you want to complain about the use of Ubers in tournament. If they go through you team, oh well, good players with good deck could beat everyone else who made up their own decks and lose to a net deck just because their deck was better. People who play different win, that is how you beat your opponent because they don't know what you are going to do. You all have the same Pokemon and set up.
When you set tournament rules, you make them so everyone can play if the want to and allow everything. Luck is a big part of the game, take it out and your playing Final Fantasy, Pokemon style and the person who shows the most power wins.
I would think that a modified format for Pokemon would be for the advance players(not that we have any) to show the most skill, just like the computer players in the games(Battle Frontier, Stadium, PBR,etc) and play skillfully any you all don't encourage that. You all want Pokemon with double weakness so you ban the Lati@s, you ban DT so your sweeper can't be stop by a weaker Pokemon, you all ban OHKO's you your wall and tanks don't die in one hit but it is okay to do OHKO attacks that do damage and so on. If anything, us "opened minded" player play a modified version of the game as you all play with "shortcut" to make battles easier for you and call us newbies because we don't play the way you do. That was the problem with the card game. I beat the all the net-decks the people play with and using a deck that I made up and had to make a new on every format and all you did was build the deck that wins, then you want to complain about the use of Ubers in tournament. If they go through you team, oh well, good players with good deck could beat everyone else who made up their own decks and lose to a net deck just because their deck was better. People who play different win, that is how you beat your opponent because they don't know what you are going to do. You all have the same Pokemon and set up.
EeveeLover929
New Member
This is officially the last post I will acknowledge as being worthy of my time that involves telling people what rules to give their tournaments.. For the eleven billionth time, it's not your business to tell people what rules their tournaments have. And I don't ban Legendaries because they are unique. Quite the contrary, I ban them because they are so overused it's not even funny. If I want to ban Legendaries because I want to see some original and creative teams, then you have two choices. The first is to suck it up and join without complaining. The second is to leave the thread without a word. And there is no way to remove luck from the game. No matter what, there's always the possibility that you'll miss, there's always the chance that the attack you get hit with is a critical hit, or that if you use Magnitude it will come out high numbered. But then we look at Double Team, or Sand Attack. Those are moves that alter the luck of the game. Now, let's look at other games of chance. How about Monopoly. You're piece is standing on the home square. In front of you are two purple spaces, the tax space, a Chance card, three light blue spaces, a Community Chest space, Visiting jail, two pink spaces, and another Community Chest. There is ALWAYS going to be a 1/6 (2/12) chance that you will land on the purple, ALWAYS a 1/12 chance of landing on Chance, ALWAYS a 1/12 chance of landing on Chance, ALWAYS a 1/6 (2/12) Chance of landing on a Community Chest, ALWAYS a 1/4 (3/12) chance of landing on a light blue, ALWAYS a 1/6 (2/12) chance of landing on a pink space, and ALWAYS a 1/12 chance of landing on Visiting Jail. There is NO way to legitimately change those odds, and any attempts at changing the odds are cheating. Now, quite clearly DT isn't cheaating. Howeverr, when you change the odds of a game, you're not playing the same game. If you have a bag of 15 yellow cubes, 11 blue cubes and one pink cube, and you're trying to get the pink cube, but then you take out one yellow cube, you're not playing "pick a pink cube out of a bag of 15 yellow cubes, 11 blue cubes and one pink cube", you're playing "pick a pink cube out of a bag of 14 yellow cubes, 11 blue cubes and one pink cube". If you're playing roulette, and you shrink the roulette so that one of the spaces becomes missing, you're not playing the same game anymore. Take a suit out of a deck of cards, you're not playing the same game of poker. Because it has different odds. And therefore, when you use DT or Sand Attack or any moves like those, you are altering the probability. This does not hold true for things like Attack, Defense or anything like that, because damage isn't a probability unless counting CH. Moves like Night Slash which naturally have higher CH rates don't count, because those moves are not part of the probabilities that alter the equation, they are part of the equation itself. Strategy should not rely on altering luck to alter the outcome, in any situation. Only in the most life-threatening should we depend upon luck instead of our own skill, because everyone is exactly as lucky as everyone else. Changing luck doesn't prove a thing, only that you're doing something cheap. The alteration of luck unbalances the equation of a battle, causing it to become screwed up. That is my final defense of evasion/accuracy modifier bans, and it will not change, because no argument I could think of could hold as steady as that.
Edit: One thing I forgot. I went through all of my logic, but could not think of a single good reason as to why OHKOs should be banned that does not involve being too powerful. So, if anyone could point out to me another reason why OHKOs should be banned, please tell me now, but until then I officially declare OHKO bans off of my rules list.
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*revs up Wall-O-Text chainsaw*
BZZZZZZZZ.
Not that it's a very good defense... "not playing the same game" when you change the odds, despite that DT doesn't change any odds not meant to be changed within the game... what a load of rubbish. I think that's the reason you have to keep repeating yourself, EeveeLover: What you have to say isn't very good, and you can't bring yourself to accept that people are calling you on what to you must seem like a very logical argument, thus you keep repeating it in the hopes that it'll eventually work.
BZZZZZZZZ.
EeveeLover929 said:
Not that it's a very good defense... "not playing the same game" when you change the odds, despite that DT doesn't change any odds not meant to be changed within the game... what a load of rubbish. I think that's the reason you have to keep repeating yourself, EeveeLover: What you have to say isn't very good, and you can't bring yourself to accept that people are calling you on what to you must seem like a very logical argument, thus you keep repeating it in the hopes that it'll eventually work.
EeveeLover929
New Member
Not quite Marril. The reason I keep repeating myself is that I have yet to see anyone actually take notice of what I'm saying. If people have, please, quote them for me so I can see, I might have just missed it because the long posts bore me (yes, I can be a hypocrit sometimes, don't bug me about it) and I just started skimming, but I'm actually tired of defending myself, so from now on, excluding my thank you for pointing out the points in time in which people have actually payed attention to what I'm saying, I'm only going to post about one thing from now on: Why you people need to stop trying to conform everyone in the world to a single series of set rules that will never be conformed to and just suck it up. Lectures begin next post, so be prepared to take notes, as there will be a test. Class dismissed.
Edit: Oh, and thanks for splitting up my post for me. I get so absentminded while posting I always forget to do that with longer posts.
EeveeLover929
New Member
I didn't say the agree with it. I'm saying I haven't read any responses to the real stuff that I'm broiling down to, except from you. They only respond to a few things, prompting me to repeat what they don't respond to, leading me to believe they either ignore it or don't see it. Anyway, lectures on free will postponed until tomorrow. Too tired to do them tonight.
PSYCO829
New Member
one hit ko moves are annoying
i would rather pokemon be a game based more around skill then luck, so a move that ko's me 30% of the time auto is not only annoying, its silly
with the exception of articuno, can you even make a viable strategy with it? no, not unless you are lucky. and if i wanted a game based around luck, id go play monopoly
double team isnt unbeatable
i run into them on wifi and in the battle tower, i just send up suicune, sub, and calm mind 6 times
then i surf
ill hit you eventually, and then you will be ko'd
know what happens then? ive got a maxed out spec attack spec def suicune who is going to wipe out your team
in short, i will probably win
i do see smogons point about takign too long though, its like the old wobbs battles
marril, dont like smogon? good, we see your point and have read your posts. dont go to their tournoments, and you are golden
i would rather pokemon be a game based more around skill then luck, so a move that ko's me 30% of the time auto is not only annoying, its silly
with the exception of articuno, can you even make a viable strategy with it? no, not unless you are lucky. and if i wanted a game based around luck, id go play monopoly
double team isnt unbeatable
i run into them on wifi and in the battle tower, i just send up suicune, sub, and calm mind 6 times
then i surf
ill hit you eventually, and then you will be ko'd
know what happens then? ive got a maxed out spec attack spec def suicune who is going to wipe out your team
in short, i will probably win
i do see smogons point about takign too long though, its like the old wobbs battles
marril, dont like smogon? good, we see your point and have read your posts. dont go to their tournoments, and you are golden
vaporeon
Moderator
PSYCO829, I like your avatar.
Now, what I have to say is, you want the game in your favor, weather its using Double Team, Bulk Up, Calm Mind 6 time, you put yourself in a win win situation and you want that even if you kill 5 Pokemon before your opponent kill it. I don't see why people think that is a problem. It is not cheap because you can't beat it. Everything is beatable and there is a way to beat, you just don't want to use it.
Now, what I have to say is, you want the game in your favor, weather its using Double Team, Bulk Up, Calm Mind 6 time, you put yourself in a win win situation and you want that even if you kill 5 Pokemon before your opponent kill it. I don't see why people think that is a problem. It is not cheap because you can't beat it. Everything is beatable and there is a way to beat, you just don't want to use it.
EeveeLover929
New Member
Marril, this is what I'm referring to. Vaporeon here is further proving my point that few are actually listening to me. Not only is he continuing to ignore what I am saying, but even when I flat out tell him that these ideas that "I don't want these pokemon/moves simply because I don't want to face them" is a load of bull in my case, he continues to believe that that's the only reason we would want to do it. However, you are right Marril, I have never been one who was skilled at conveying my ideas through any means but fiction. I'm a brilliant mind when it comes to fictional writing, but unfortunately when it comes to flat out giving my ideas and defending them, I outright stink. It's the reason why I will never win my one-man war against the Sppf RP mods to get them to lower the standards. I can never explain it to them in the right way.
Edit: In regards to OHKO's, I now side with the anti-Smogon guys. Jeez, I'm straddling the border here. I follow the ideals of both.
vaporeon
Moderator
Its not that, I am just defending the game itself. Peoples reasons behind it is "I worked hard to raise my team just to go against a team of Ubers and lose" when the worked just as hard. A Pikachu just as strong as Mewtwo would be bad. I like evasion and accuracy mods because they help you win. You want to be different because as far as I am concerned, we could make rules that everyone could agree with. Yes I know how evil Double Team could be because my Zapdos killed off 4 Pokemon with it, (ether that or get hit with Stone Edge). My friend thinks that DT/OHKO's are broken but people allow Garchomp in battles with his Sand Veil ability with gives him like +2 Double Team's effect, but that is okay right. I here what you are saying, and I play in those tournaments just to see how people play. When I played at the Game Stop tournament, I say many play styles and free sprite play with no restriction and no one abused Ubers and played with their favorites, not what wins. Zangoose beating Weavile when both had a Focus Sash. Weavile is better but Zangoose won. How many of you play with your favorites, how many of you have favorites but plays what win, and you say Ubers, DT/OHKO's make the game less fun. Playing with your favorites is what makes the game fun, Ubers or not, Unique or not. I here what you are saying, but just not in tournaments, I see it in the open, no one wants to play me because I use Double Team because they think its a rookie attack. I bought this game so I could play people and their strategy against my own, but now I see how people play. Its the person with the fastest Garchomp and Weavile win.
EeveeLover929
New Member
People at that tournament didn't abuse Ubers, but a lot of people do. Many, many people do. That's the point behind it, though in light of this I am wiling to enter tournaments that have them. Howeve, people can play with their favorites just as easily with a one uber rule, it's just a failsafe to protect against the Uber-abusers. After a few tournaments (first I'm going to figure out my stupid router) I'll try one that allows Ubers and see where it goes. As for DT vs Sand Veil, that's not an active choice effect. You have Sandstorm going on, your Garchomp is going to be using Sand Veil. The difference is that unlike DT, Sand veil wears off with Sandstorm, which is in five turns unless a Hippowdon or a Tyranitar has been brought out, something easily correctable through Kyogre, Groudon, Abombasnow, or just using Rain Dance, Sunny Day, or Hail. My point being, Sand Veil is a reversible effect. DT is not. Unless you want to break out moves like Sweet scent or something, but as said before, another reason for DT being broken is that if your pokemon is fast enough, it has no repercussions unless your opponent gets lucky, but Sweet Scent does.
I don't think you're in any position to be playing the "poorly constructed argument" card when your argument is, at best, held up by two conflicting statements.
Why are legendaries commonly banned amonst players who build teams specifically designed to play other teams? Because they make the game too lopsided. It's got nothing to do with luck or skill or some other crap that Smogon's twits echo thoughout the internet, it has to do with the fact that enabiling legendaries narrows your options to such a degree that it's either use a legendary, you use pokemon specifically designed to counter specific legendaries that may or may not be useful against anything else, or you lose. When you play without legendaries, is it b(Pokegym won't let me say this word)ized version of the game? Certainly, don't kid yourself. Is it more fun? Does it allow for more options, more variety, so not every match degredates to the exact same thing? Certainly.
Replace every instance with "legendaries" in that paragraph with double team, and bam, instant logic. It's the SAME THING. Using double team degrades the game to that you have to build your team around double team (there are many counters, yes, but that's not the point), you have to use double team, or you'd better brace yourself for a loss. It's got nothing to do with luck -- the entire game is built off of the modification of luck -- it's got to do with just how much of an influence on the metagame it has. As for OHKO moves, that's an ego issue. I'm not even going to try and defend that.
If all of this doesn't ring a bell, I ask you to do a little reading on a certain thread that you may or may not remember about wavedashing.
Why are legendaries commonly banned amonst players who build teams specifically designed to play other teams? Because they make the game too lopsided. It's got nothing to do with luck or skill or some other crap that Smogon's twits echo thoughout the internet, it has to do with the fact that enabiling legendaries narrows your options to such a degree that it's either use a legendary, you use pokemon specifically designed to counter specific legendaries that may or may not be useful against anything else, or you lose. When you play without legendaries, is it b(Pokegym won't let me say this word)ized version of the game? Certainly, don't kid yourself. Is it more fun? Does it allow for more options, more variety, so not every match degredates to the exact same thing? Certainly.
Replace every instance with "legendaries" in that paragraph with double team, and bam, instant logic. It's the SAME THING. Using double team degrades the game to that you have to build your team around double team (there are many counters, yes, but that's not the point), you have to use double team, or you'd better brace yourself for a loss. It's got nothing to do with luck -- the entire game is built off of the modification of luck -- it's got to do with just how much of an influence on the metagame it has. As for OHKO moves, that's an ego issue. I'm not even going to try and defend that.
If all of this doesn't ring a bell, I ask you to do a little reading on a certain thread that you may or may not remember about wavedashing.
EeveeLover929
New Member
The bolded part is my main reason for banning Legendaries, though in different context. It allows for more independence and variety, the tactical mixing of certain pokemon to create an impenetrable barrier in which you have very few weaknesses, and of course, having a team that was planned out independently, by you, with some of your favored pokemon. Just look at me, my favorite 4th Gen Pokemon (not counting Dialga, cause Dialga's Uber) is Infernape, and it's the lead of my team. While that's not very unique, it's also backed up by a Vespiquen, a Skuntank, and most interestngly enough, where most go for the sweeper Floatzel (to my knowledge), I have a Wall Gastrodon. Interesting and unique, different from othe people. And while some of my pokemon choices may be a little broken in already (Infernape, Staraptor, Blissey), not only do I compliment them with an independent and unique counterpart three, but I also give them unique movesets (my Blissey, for instance, has Thunder, Blizzard, Fire Blast, and I'm debating replacing Softboiled, which hasn't served me well at all, with Solarbeam, turning it from what one would often consider a defensive pokemon into a super-tank. Now, quite obviously these are watered down because none of them are the same type as Blissey, but they are powerful all the same).
garsh0p
New Member
now, i'm not against the double team argument, but i thought we already established how insanely strong some ubers can be. scarf kyogre wipes out nearly every pokemon in the game in 2 hits. calm mind mewtwo also has very few counters. that's only the tip of the uber iceberg. allowing ubers and allowing double team is not the same thing. ubers make the metagame much more centralized than double team ever will.
your zangoose vs weavile comparison is illogical. weavile is better because it handles more threats than zangoose, not because it wins a 1v1 fight with another pokemon.
i can see your post criticizes the "smogon metagame" by saying that "the person with the fastest garcohmp and weavile wins," but from that comment alone i can tell that you don't really understand the metagame that you're talking about. walling is very important in that metagame and you won't win if you rely on nothing but sweepers.
i'm sorry, but for the last time, losing is NOT fun. don't be an idealist. many of us are competitive, and losing is not fun when you're competitive. however, i'm not going so far as to say double team makes the game not fun. please tell me you have fun when you get 6-0'd by a scarf kyogre.
For the sake of argument, name me a single move that has the power to control a game as much as double team, keeping in mind that double team is nearly universally accessible.
Moves of the swift variety have a BA of 60 which, in terms of any pokemon not spamming double team, are totally useless. Short of one-shotting (an even more counterable strategy) I don't see much.
The sarcasm is always appreciated, but do try to make some sort of a point while you're at it.
Moves of the swift variety have a BA of 60 which, in terms of any pokemon not spamming double team, are totally useless. Short of one-shotting (an even more counterable strategy) I don't see much.
The sarcasm is always appreciated, but do try to make some sort of a point while you're at it.
For the sake of argument, I'm going to assume there are more counters to Double Team than just Swift-style moves. If there aren't, then I'm going to assume that I've been misled by a bunch of horrible, heinous lies.
Also, Baton Pass can, although not by itself, completely swing a game.
Also, Baton Pass can, although not by itself, completely swing a game.
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