Lets talk about the bans people put on the Pokemon games
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vaporeon
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Losing is not fun and I know that but I stop a Kyogre with my Vaporeon. I don't fully understand the metagame of Pokemon because I really don't think it has on with the rules you all set. You all ban unique Pokemon to add verity to the game, but the automatic 3 in each team are Garchomp, Blissey, Weavile and 3 others. I know that Weavile is better then Zangoose but I like Zangoose because I like it and I choose it because it has a better move set (learns just about every attack it the game.).
Master_Whiscash_77
New Member
Alright people. I have to say i am in favor of the anti-bans. Everything you've listed that's annoying (Lati@s w/ Soul Dew, OHKO moves, Wobb/Bliss w/ Leftovers, and Double Team) can be countered by 1 pokemon:
Sableye.
Moveset:
Taunt
Torment
Knock Off
Confuse Ray
Item: Focus Sash
against a DT/OHKO pkmn, just Taunt so they can't DT, then Torment so tey cant repetitively attempt to OHKO you. Confuse them to make things harder for them, and while you're at it, Knock Off their item. Against any annoying item Pkmn, just Knock off. This cna also throw off people who try to set up w/ Dragon dance, Calm Mind, etc. So if you don't like playing with all the "annoying" rules, just play Sableye in your team. You can EV train him for speed if you want but always make sure his ability is Keen Eye. If he has stall, he is terrible.
Sableye.
Moveset:
Taunt
Torment
Knock Off
Confuse Ray
Item: Focus Sash
against a DT/OHKO pkmn, just Taunt so they can't DT, then Torment so tey cant repetitively attempt to OHKO you. Confuse them to make things harder for them, and while you're at it, Knock Off their item. Against any annoying item Pkmn, just Knock off. This cna also throw off people who try to set up w/ Dragon dance, Calm Mind, etc. So if you don't like playing with all the "annoying" rules, just play Sableye in your team. You can EV train him for speed if you want but always make sure his ability is Keen Eye. If he has stall, he is terrible.
garsh0p
New Member
you must be kidding. one taunt from gyarados and you're set up fodder, not to mention that sableye has a dismal 50 base speed and pathetic stats all around. you're gonna get one shotted by anything and everything before you get to pull off an attack.
EDIT:
oh you have a focus sash. oh well that still won't matter. you'll die too fast.
Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:
of those 3 you list, the only pokemon i can say that i see in nearly every battle is blissey. garchomp and weavile are not "automatic ins."
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EeveeLover929
New Member
And do you know why Vaporeon? Because they both have serious weakness issues. Garchomp is pathetic. My lv. 50 Blissey took out the Champion's lv. 66 Garchomp with a single Blizzard (she made the mistake of switching out from Milotic), and no matter how tough a Weavile is, it will still always fall to fighting types, because of it's typing. Pokemon with 4X weaknesses, no matter how protected they are from everything else, are always going to be liabilities. I'd much rather bring a Zangoose to the party then a Weavile, and not because it's my favorite. I don't eve like Zangoose all that much, but it has a good range of moves, it's fairly strong, and it looks pretty cool. Better than Weavile, who quite frankly isn't as much of the three and only wins so often because of it's speed, which is easily countered with Infernape.
Edit: Oh, and PSYCO, nachos wll always be superior to tacos, so don't even try.
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I'm no expert at this but I'll take a whack at it, name me some double team counters that are nonspecific.
There's another statement that doesn't make sense.
Baton pass is nowhere near as accessible as Double Team. The amount of pokemon that can use it effectively are few and far between. Baton pass also requires you to largely build the moveset around it, not the other way around. A BPer also takes up a slot on your team and also rarely has another intended purpose than, y'know, baton pass. Baton pass is also ridiculously easy to counter.
The fact is Baton Pass doesn't increase the lastability of your pokemon -- any pokemon -- by fifteen percent incriments every turn it's used.
EDIT: Also, just for fun, baton passing double team.
PSYCO829
New Member
Roar, Taunt, and Haze, for example, are all useful against Pokémon that use any kind of status enhancement, not just Double Team. While not hard counters (and thus not ideal), status attacks such as Thunderwave or Confuse Ray (or even annoyance moves like Imprison) can hinder one's ability to simply spam Double Team until theoretical invincibility.
It's also worth noting that, at least on my cartridge, a single Double Team doesn't make you invincible. Maybe I've just got a really glitchy game, but I have a really weird habit of hitting things after the first or even second Double Team.
It's also worth noting that, at least on my cartridge, a single Double Team doesn't make you invincible. Maybe I've just got a really glitchy game, but I have a really weird habit of hitting things after the first or even second Double Team.
EeveeLover929
New Member
Yes I did. What are you gonna do about it?
And I have never once said that there are any broken Pokemon in the game. I have said that I've seen Ubers and Legendaries abused, and that I would prefer creative and unique teams. I agree, no pokemon is broken, because there's no such thing as invincible. However, certain moves, such as DT, are, in my eyes, a little broken. You don't have to agree with me, you can even argue with me, but you're not in charge of me. No one is inn charge of anyone, really, and anything anyone here might say will not have any effect on my rules. I'm merely giving my views. And that will end our "why not to try and force people to use or not use a certain rule in their tournaments" lecture for today class.
Cheater Hater
New Member
Foresight and Miracle Eye also have some uses (removing Ghost's/Dark's immunities), and if it really became prevalent, you could even use Sweet Scent with low-accuracy moves as a combo (what happens exactly when you lower evasion below default?).
And "just for fun" may not be a minor thing. Using Baton Pass with Double Team is so good at removing the main weakness of DT--that it uses a move slot--that there is near universal consensus the combo should be banned, even among DT supporters
And "just for fun" may not be a minor thing. Using Baton Pass with Double Team is so good at removing the main weakness of DT--that it uses a move slot--that there is near universal consensus the combo should be banned, even among DT supporters
garsh0p
New Member
ummm.. last time i checked, weavile outruns infernape by alot.
EeveeLover929
New Member
I wasn't going by stats, I just knew that Infernape was fast. Unlike many I don't have the stats of every Pokemon memorized by heart. I just checked, and I have a revision.
That, my friend, is what can kill a Weavile.
Taunt is only effective at Double Team spam reduction if it's the first move used, once it's already used a few times there's little use in preventing it from being used any further. Effective hazers that do anything else are still on a short list (also see ones that don't easily get one- or even two-shotted). Roar as a double team counter doesn't account for a lot of effective double team strategies, particularly double team being everywhere.
No one ever said that it makes you invincible, but it's self-permitting and allows for ridiculous extensions of staying power.
So it's a powerful move. It's analogous to a tier one deck. It's highly prevalent, but you don't need to use it in order to win. You don't even need to counter it specifically, although as a metagame choice it can help quite a bit.
There's also one other counter I forgot to mention: Your beaver. Your beaver is good because it can nullify Double Team right on the switch-in. The only problem is that nobody really wants to see your beaver in a battle, and your beaver really doesn't have much use in a battle past that. Plus against some people, your beaver is completely useless.
End summary, Bibarel just isn't worth it.
There's also one other counter I forgot to mention: Your beaver. Your beaver is good because it can nullify Double Team right on the switch-in. The only problem is that nobody really wants to see your beaver in a battle, and your beaver really doesn't have much use in a battle past that. Plus against some people, your beaver is completely useless.
End summary, Bibarel just isn't worth it.
EeveeLover929
New Member
I wasn't counting RBY Mewtwo in that. It's a given that RBY Mewtwo is invincible.
garsh0p
New Member
umm... that makes no sense. ALL sweepers are countered by a "high defense tank." from your logic, all sweepers are easily countered, making them not worthwhile.
and you don't NEED a fighting attack to counter a weavile. its frail as it is.
you don't understand the game well enough if you're saying things like "this pokemon ONLY has high attack and speed which makes it NOT SO GOOD because it can be countered by a tank." your definition of a good pokemon would then be a pokemon who has high EVERYTHING, which makes us move into uber territory. you're seriously underestimating the power of weavile if you shrug it off as another pokemon with high attack.
So I just rechecked that thread Cheater Hater posted. One thing didn't surprise me (it getting locked for no reason), and one thing did (seeing the Happy Good Times Fortune Happiness Happity Hocks Cat-Gonk Happifier).
Still, it further reinforces my belief that you can tell a good player from a bad one by their opinion on Double Team.
Still, it further reinforces my belief that you can tell a good player from a bad one by their opinion on Double Team.
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