Proposing a possible first: Ban from Unlimited?

[davechri]

Darn Slowking

Slowking - I hate him.

My favorite Unlimited deck is Dark Vileplume (I was previously "Dark and Vile") and I figure there are enough Slowking decks out there to warrant keeping EVERYBODY from playing trainers.

Slowking is awesome. But there's way too much of him being played.

As for banning him, I say "No." There are enough ways around him (Dark Vileplume, Igglybuff, Muk) to limit the damage he does.

 

[Ez1]

I think a partial answer to the slowking question is to
be found within a larger question????

Which cards make the game more competitive
and/or more fun to play??? If we go with the
idea(and this may not be true) that the greater
number of competitive decks that are playable,
the more fun the game becomes and the
greater the number of people who want to play.

With this in mind several cards have had a huge
impact on the game and the way that it
is played.

1. ER/SER made evolution decks with their
slower development time and heavier energy
requirements almost unplayable.

2. Gust of Wind made your bench a vulnerable
place putting emphasis on smaller evolution
decks aka. haymakers.

3. Sneasel with Slowking left the unlimited
format with only a handful of viable decks.

4. Slowking in modified again limited the
number of playable decks. Slowking became
a staple in the top decks.

5. Tyrogue almost made electric decks
extinct.

6. Double gust also made your bench vulnerable
making fast decks like cargo very dominant.

7. The baby powers made flips maddeningly common
and brought more of a luck element into the game.

There are probably a few other cards that have
had a huge impact but you get the idea.

Going back to the idea that if more playable
decks=more fun=more players then we should
be looking at each card and asking does
that card make the game better or worse??

I think that the number of new, exciting and
playable(able to win) decks being posted
on the gym show the impact some of these
cards have had in the past. With no gust/double gust
your bench is much better protected and you
can develop a wider line of strategies.
Without er/ser you can play evolution decks.
Without slowking/chaos gym you can play
trainers. Without some of these cards the
game isn't first to play first to win the
way that it was in the past.

I think that we should have a main format(now eon)
that thinks heavily about the impact
of each card on the health of the game
and react quickly to those cards that
prove to have a negative impact. That
means possible banning in the main format.

After that I feel that we should let each
group decide on its own what cards to add
or delete in a specific format. Every league
I've seen seems to have it's own variations.
If you want to play unlimited with slowking
then do so. If your group doesn't then don't.

Personally I always found slowking games boring.
They were little more than a race to see who
got them first and then seemingly endless
rounds of flips.

JUst my opinion.
Sorry this is so long.

 

[Corinth Maxwell]

My opinions.....

My opinion is that, I have no opinion yet. I have never seen that card before, and don't really know what to say about that. I've never seen BDay Pikachu, either, but I know it's been banned from all sanctioned tournaments. If I HAD slowking, then I could give a more accurate opinion. I don't play ANY card from the neo set, because I haven't completed it. I can't even find most of the cards these days. (BTW, anyone who wants to buy my older, yet mint-condition cards, PM me. They are ALWAYS for sale.)

 

[Cyrus]

Well, since I had a football game, I didn't get to see the entirety of this post's changes. But let me reply to this:

By Dkates:
But even so, the card is extremely broken, to the point that a large number of otherwise good decks have been rendered inviable.

Dkates, that's exactly why so many of us mentioned the counters. It isn't so broken to that point: You just have to play with the flow of the format.

 

[Dek]

In my opinion, Slowking should be banned. I have fought against it, I have lost against it. But I am not going to be selfish about it. Either way, I suggest the one of the following be done:

*ban it
*rewrite it and have the old copies following the Japanese rulings. after all, Nintendo owns the TCG in Japan, and it now owns the TCG in America.
*limit the number of copies (kind of like what Ultra Deck/Konami did to Monster Reborn in YGO)
*Add some new rulings I started thinking about:
1. If Slowking is in play, it must be an Active Pokemon for at least 4 turns or until the game ends.
2. If you (or your opponenet) has more than one Slowking in play, your opponent (or you) only must flip for one Slowking.
3. Use Am Pm's idea and have the Power affect BOTH players (or all players if there are 4)

I think these are some good solutions. Tell me what you think about any of these.

 

[Lance313]

Okay, since someone DID ask my opinion...

I am first and foremost against banning cards. Period. I died laughing at Mike G's strategy of using Ditto to counter Sneasel, though he had to swallow all his bad words about it, but I think it was a first or second turn KO at Worlds.

Second, I have beaten SlowKing decks as much as I have lost to them. I rarely run into them, as most of the players I play against prefer other kinds of cards, so it is not as much a problem for me as some seem to have. I play lots of cards that damage bench dwellers (as much for babies and to kill Pokemon before they can evolve into something dangerous as anything) and play fewer trainers than the trainermon crowd, so I am not as much a disadvantage as some of you seem to be.
Third, I disagree that you have to build a deck specifically to counter Slowking to beat it consistently. You may not be taking advantage of all the cards available to build a deck. Pichu, Pokemon powers that turn off other powers, Powers/Attacks that switch the Defending Pokemon with the bench, Attacks/Powers that move or place damage on benched Pokemon, etc. are all strategies that work against a wide variety of decks, not just as counters to Slowking. I had more trouble with SER/ER than I ever did with Slowking.

Making Unlimited more limited just to save you from one card will just make some other card the top of the most hated list. I agree with those that say "where will it end", because as soon as you have opened that Pandoras box, you cannot rightly say that that is the end and no more. What happens when a new card comes out that makes a previously released card broken? That's right, cries for a new ban. It is a road that mustn't be taken. New cards may come out that will either enhance strategies to nullify the effects of previous cards or otherwise make them less broken or usefull, and new cards may come out that make previous cards more broken. Will you then call for ban removals and new ban restrictions?

Since you asked.

フィッシャー ランス
Former Master Professor.

 

[LeagueMom]

Well, in what I have seen at York and in a lot of tournaments, Slowking can make the game incredibly frustrating but as we all know Unlimited does tend to become nothing but Trainermon and that is one of the reasons so many players were glad to move to Modified.
With the Japanese rules Slowking is certainly not the annoyance he was and I don't think he needs to be banned.
I say leave it the way it is. The players are used to dealing with Slowking and his ilk and have adapted. It's not banning cards that makes the game, it's the players.

 

[Bahamut_X]

With the various camps about whether or not to 'kill' the 'king in tournament play, I find that I would be with the camp that would keep it in play. All this from one little power that has the possibility to shut down trainers all together. As I see it; it's a good card, but once and a while people should try to make decks that are fun to play with their existing cards. And when it comes to tournaments, I haven't been to too many; I've been to too few tourneys. And at the moment, I'll be out of luck if I ran my current casual deck through modified as most of the cards are from Neo back to Base 1. However the only way that I can see to get around is to possibly use status attacks to render the power out of commision. Then again I wouldn't put all of the Slowking users in the same boat, as I will do a swap for when I do get out my Slowking to weaken my deck for its darker sibling. My reason for doing so, is there are people that would abuse some powers fairly often. If I was to take some of my battles using my own Slowking, I rarely even use it's power when I have it in my deck.

But this is coming from someone who's casual games can take as much as an hour or two to play just one game under the right conditions. Who ever said that your game should be quick has never had games that are longer then 15 minutes. There are times when the longer a game is drawn out, the more exciting it gets. As well, there is a tendancy to say that games must take a maximum of 40 minutes in a tournament. They just haven't seen two equally matched decks duke it out. Who says that you cannot have battles where opponents have almost the same strengths and weaknesses for their decks. When you have a P/D/S vs a P/D/G; it would come down not to who has more power, but the way the cards were played. Like I've managed to win games where I made early mistakes, but my deck can compensate for it. When it eventually boils down to the essence; is if you don't have it, just find a way to defeat it with what you have.

 

[jdb728]

P/D/S vs a P/D/G

Poliwag/Duskull/Squirtle? Poliwrath/Drowzee/Ghastly? With decks like that, I guess you haven't played in any real tourney's lately :clap: :nonono: :lol:

To keep this on topic, I noticed that some people keep ignoring that fact that we want it banned as a last resort, and only if errattaing it to the way it is in Japan(and the way it should have always been) isn't an option.

I also noticed that it appears people aren't looking at the fact of the problem this type of thing would cause in international play(as some have already pointed out).


Thanks for reading.

 

[Dunjohn]

Just to say, I don't think Eratta should be slapped onto a card that turns out to be too powerful. Eratta is an absolute last resort that should only be used where the printed text has some flaw that the designers didn't intend. Take Blaine's Charizard, for example. Slowking saw print exactly as it's WotC designers intended, and they banned it from Modified when it turned out to be a little too good. Ultimitely, the companies want their cards to do exactly what they say they do, otherwise, what's the point?

Banning Slowking from Unlimited wouldn't be a good idea either, I reckon. Like eratta, Unlimited is designed to let players use whatever cards they have without needing to know information that isn't printed on the cards. There's nothing on Slowking that would let kids know it's banned. The fewer invisible hands in this format, the better. Modified is meant for tournaments, while Unlimited is meant for just playing the game.

Slowking's japanese text isn't necessarily the way it "should always have been". It's japanese text is intended for the way the Japanese play the game. It's english text was intended for the way we play the game. WotC reworded it in order to fit the way their game had been going - and remember, Trainers had completely taken over by this point, and it was probably meant as a hoser - and, unfortunately, they messed up. The Japanese game has had similar problem cards.

 

[Cooltrainer Aaron]

slowking, forget that

no need for the Slowking ban. That is just one of the little cards that give a trainer a challenge. If you are a good trainer, you'd be able to counter Slowkings. With unlimited, there are tons of cards available that you can use to stop it.

 

[Kyfogre22]

somone who can pull slowking fast enough is at a position where its uncounterable. Four slowkings can easily be pulled on the second turn which is complete trainer denial in the worst sense of the word.

Slowking can easily be countered, If you build an archetype around it.

Seriously, how fun can it be to play an anti-slowking deck?

 

[BJJ763]

Wow build an entire deck around stopping Slowking. And here i just use Igglybuffs. Or Brock's Mankey. Or Pichu. Or Magby. Just a few cards put into the deck.

 

[Jeremy Badeaux]

well, duh

Wow build an entire deck around stopping Slowking. And here i just use Igglybuffs. Or Brock's Mankey. Or Pichu. Or Magby. Just a few cards put into the deck.

I know that Slowking decks run themselves, but you might get a taste of how powerful it is if you stop playing little kids who don't know any more than what the online decklist told them.

And now to rebut all of these "counters":
Igglybuff. They send up a pichu, trigger the gold berries on their Slowkings, and KO the igglybuffs(and you can't really get them back once slowkings power is back on).

Muk. You spend time and resources getting a muk out, then your opponent will promptly gust it out and get an easy KO.

Pichu. there is a difference between having baby rule and being invincible, learn it. How long do you think your pichus will last(they need to do 80 damage to each slowking, as long as they don't flip heads for baby rule or play any healing during the next 4 turns, then you just got the upper hand).

Dark Vileplume. As long as they let the oddish and D. Glooms survive, and don't get slowkings out before you can use the nessecary speed to get your D. Plumes into play, then you just got the upper hand, for a while.

Brocks Mankey. They play switch to put slowking on the bench and slaughter the B. Mankey.

SI Jigglypuff. See Brocks Mankey(not to mention the fact that it's tyrogue bait).

Magby. Solid, but not that great against Slowking.
Your opponent is likely to either:
a. KO it, thusly shutting off the sputter effect or
b. Gust it to the bench and KO something else, thusly ending the sputter effect.

Erikas Victreebel/AQ Victreebel. We all know how great those bellsprouts and weepingbells are, and then there's no chance they would ever gust your victreebell to meet the bussiness end of a sneasel, right?

Special Conditions(please tell me this was a joke).
They aren't exactly going to be sending the Slowkings into the active spot to begin with.

 

[BJJ763]

I know that Slowking decks run themselves, but you might get a taste of how powerful it is if you stop playing little kids who don't know any more than what the online decklist told them.

You know, i'm getting might sick and tired of every time you respond, your reply comes in the form of an attack. You don't know me. You don't know what i play. You don't know whom i play against. If you feel that strongly against Slowking, don't play Unlimited. As stated countless times before, people will play to win with what wins. Better watch out for Modified too as i'm sure people will play card(s) that give them the advantage.

For all your counters to the counters, i can counter your counter-counters. See i can just Scoop Up my damaged Igglies. Yes they can Switch out their Slowking, but that's assuming i haven't RSAed it away. Or IPOR their hand down to 4 cards.

Now at the Prof tourney at Worlds, what deck won? A Metal Chansey (R.I.P.). It had a few Igglybuffs in it to counter the Slowkings played oh how i wished i put some in my deck. Just a few Igglies. And it took first ahead of all those Slowkings. It wasn't built to stop Slowking. It was built to get Metal on Chansey. Then win. Which it did. With only a few slots for Slowking.

 

[Jeremy Badeaux]

I seem to remember a page I saw about underhanded debate tricks

My posts are not meant as attacks, unless you consider a rebuttal to be an attack(you opened the door to that subject by bringing the players you faced into the topic, and thusly the ability of those players is also open to question, otherwise we can not have a true measurement on the abilities of the card in dispute).

You described being able to use counters on slowking decks that shouldn't have been succeptable to those counters in the first place.
You could use scoop up on your igglys, but how long do you think they would last when you have to scoop up three of them(much less when you would have to use scoop up every turn)?

A metal chancey, so you're talking about a deck that isn't based on trainers (at least not as much as energy), beating a deck that is based on trainer denial(not to mention the added strength of being able to survive beat up).

I'm in no way saying that whoever it was that won the prof event isn't skilled, but a lot of people were running random decks that were meant to have fun(shoot, nick15 even used fastly).

 

[LightUmbreon]

die slowking die! anyway, bcuz e-cards suck and eon is a boring, shoddy, half-***ed format, I am an avid unlimited player. And yeah, slowking should be banned. Reasons:

1. Slowking is a big, fat, not to mention pink(if you know what i mean), LOSER. He should be banned so he could eat cheetos or something, the fatty.

2. He's cheap. He's cheaper than a penny made in china. His power ruins what makes unlimited and every other format fun, trainers(also a reason why eon sucks), and makes chaos gym loose it's crazyness in unlimited.

3. Unlimited should become the tourney format. Let's face it people, eon is the WORST FORMAT EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME. Like DBZ, unlimited should be the primary format, only BANNINGS, no more "buy more cards that suck" formats. That's also why i don't play pkmn that mcuh, because the new format is so illogical and boring(w/o draw power)

Now that's a rant I wanted to settle for a while. have fun with it!

 

[Lion_of_Darkness]

die slowking die! anyway, bcuz e-cards suck and eon is a boring, shoddy, half-***ed format, I am an avid unlimited player. And yeah, slowking should be banned. Reasons:

1. Slowking is a big, fat, not to mention pink(if you know what i mean), LOSER. He should be banned so he could eat cheetos or something, the fatty.

2. He's cheap. He's cheaper than a penny made in china. His power ruins what makes unlimited and every other format fun, trainers(also a reason why eon sucks), and makes chaos gym loose it's crazyness in unlimited.

3. Unlimited should become the tourney format. Let's face it people, eon is the WORST FORMAT EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME. Like DBZ, unlimited should be the primary format, only BANNINGS, no more "buy more cards that suck" formats. That's also why i don't play pkmn that mcuh, because the new format is so illogical and boring(w/o draw power)

Now that's a rant I wanted to settle for a while. have fun with it!

Preach it, brother! Anyway, yeah, Slowking is unfair. Modified does seem pretty boring right now, so Unlimited should be the most played format, and Slowking ruins it! It makes the game one sided. YGO is bad enough for that, so do we really need this aggrivation in Pokemon? BAN SLOWKING. Chaos Gym was fun before Slowking came into play! Now it's just a way of disruption. The word "fun" up above should be true for games with a reputation like Pokemon! Let's get rid of Slowking.

 

[dkates]

It would be the most powerful playable card to ever get banned.

Hehe -- technically, it would also be the least powerful card to ever get banned -- no other playable card ever has been banned from Unlimited. Of course, I'm still all for doing something, be it errata, reprint, or ban. Please, add my user name (dkates) to your list.

 

[Am Pm]

I say give slowking a reprint. It should be played like the japanese version. It's power will only work while it's active.