Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Public Healthcare is Bad

Guys - I get the feeling that most of you are debating this with no experience of a publicly run system.

Now I have experience of both public and private and you know what? It makes no real difference as far as I can see. A public system can have some really good parts (the care my dad got from the NHS when his foot had a fracture was so much better than his usual private hospital), and a private system could be horribly bad (my friend being misdiagnosed by 'an expert in his field' which luckily, she had the common sense to ignore)

Quality of care is based much more on the training of the people than who is paying for it in my experience.

Reasons I think this is a good thing:

- Something done about cost of existing care (which is ridiculously inefficient)
- More people get access to care

Everything else is kinda irrelevant given the advantages this has, or have I missed something fundamental?
 
Guys - I get the feeling that most of you are debating this with no experience of a publicly run system.

Now I have experience of both public and private and you know what? It makes no real difference as far as I can see. A public system can have some really good parts (the care my dad got from the NHS when his foot had a fracture was so much better than his usual private hospital), and a private system could be horribly bad (my friend being misdiagnosed by 'an expert in his field' which luckily, she had the common sense to ignore)

Quality of care is based much more on the training of the people than who is paying for it in my experience.

Reasons I think this is a good thing:

- Something done about cost of existing care (which is ridiculously inefficient)
- More people get access to care

Everything else is kinda irrelevant given the advantages this has, or have I missed something fundamental?

I'm not willing to debate the merits of the bill itself as I have yet to read its contents (and I doubt even those voting on it have, in its entirety) and we all have of yet to see its aftereffects. I'm arguing what I do know, that the method of passing it was ethically shaky given the tremendous precedent set.
 
10 people and a wagon. 10 people need to make a long trip. They have lots of supplies loaded on a large wagon, and plan on having everyone push the wagon. It is proven that the more efficient for 10 folks to have shared wagon, and push together than for if each of them carried their own bag of supplies. It will be a long journey, and the 10 folks decide democracy is the best way to work. They agree that it would also be good for them to travel in a group, and if anyone get’s hurt or injured, the others can help.

On the first day, the trip starts with 10 people pushing the wagon, the wagon weight is fairly divided among the 10, and the load travels fairly easily with 10 people pushing. That first day, they travel 20 miles.

On that 2nd day they realize that there are snakes on their paths, and they can’t be on the look out for snakes when you are busy pushing the wagon. No one wanted to be bitten by a snake, so it was agreed and voted on that "Nancy" would be walk ahead of the wagon with a club protect the others from any snakes that they might come across. That second day, they travel 18 miles.

As they go along, with 1 snake protector and 9 people pushing, they realize they aren't always taking the best path for their trip, and it is suggested that one person walks far ahead of the group to find good routes to push the wagon. It is voted upon and agreed that this is best way to proceed. “Harry” is elected to be the pathfinder of the group, with Nancy protecting the 8 other people pushing the wagon from snakes. That 3rd day, they travel 20 miles.

The trip continues on with 1 pathfinder, 1 snaker, and 8 wagon pushers. Sally is an older person, who has trouble with her feet. It is suggested that it might be better if Sally just rides on the wagon instead of pushing the wagon. "Sally doesn't weigh allot, and she doesn’t push that hard anyways". Thus the group votes decides that "Sally" can ride on the wagon. The 7 people can still push the wagon, even with Sally on the wagon. On the 4th they travel 19 miles.

The next day, Barney complains that he is just older than Sally, and he too has trouble with his feet. Barney points out that he weighs even less than Sally, and says that he was barely pushing the wagon at all. Initially folks didn't want Barney to ride on the wagon also, but he kept complaining, and they said it would not be fair if we allowed “Sally” to ride and not Barney. So they relented voted to allow him to ride on the wagon. Thus there were 1 pathfinder, 1 snaker, 2 riders and 6 people pushing the wagon. The 6 wagon pushers are now having a hard time pushing the wagon, but they can still do it. That 5th day they and the wagon traveled 14 miles.

The next day, they continued their trip with 1 pathfinder, 1 snaker, 2 riders and 6 people pushing the wagon. Early in the morning, “Kelly” steps in a gopher hole and breaks her ankle. “Kelly” can’t walk and needs to ride on the wagon also. The other 5 complain that it will be very hard for them to push the wagon with 3 people on it. They were reminded that it was agreed upon as the trip started that if someone was injured that they would help them and push them on the wagon. The remaining 5 pushers asked to vote on others to help push, but the other 5 had no interested in helping push, thus they couldn’t agree to change the rules. Thus the trip continued with 1 pathfinder, 1 snakers, 3 riders, and 5 pushers. That 6th day the pushers managed to push the wagon 8 miles, and were worn out afterwards.

The 7th day, the 5 non pushers woke up and found that the 5 pushers have grabbed their bags of supplies and left them and the wagon. Now the wagon had 5 people, none of them interested in pushing, and they all died. (or they grabbed their own stuff and carried their own loads and survived.)

This analogy is the way the socialism and their big government agenda is treats the taxpayers. It is easy for us to accept each and every small step of socialism in terms of humanism. The taxpayer can only push and toil so much and carry so many folks on our backs before folks get up and look to leave. I am not a millionaire, but I am a taxpayer. I know that when democrats keep attacking and villianising the hard working people that do make good money, those super rich people can and will leave, or stop bothering to work hard and push the wagon. And then they will be less of us to push the wagon full of riders.

Everyone is for education, everyone is for helping the less fortunate, everyone is for defense, but Private Business (Pushers) can only pay or carry so much of a load. We as a country need to create jobs that pay taxes, not paid by taxes. The more private sector jobs versus public sector jobs the lighter the load that the goverment burdens us with. Goverment can get too big, and drowning out private business. Eventually goverment has too enslave the 5 wagon pushers or the wagon doesn't move. There is a right size for goverment so that the country can move forward. More goverment isn't the solution to the economic problems and ultimately won't create jobs.
 
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10 people and a wagon. 10 people need to make a long trip. They have lots of supplies loaded on a large wagon, and plan on having everyone push the wagon. It is proven that the more efficient for 10 folks to have shared wagon, and push together than for if each of them carried their own bag of supplies. It will be a long journey, and the 10 folks decide democracy is the best way to work. They agree that it would also be good for them to travel in a group, and if anyone get’s hurt or injured, the others can help.

On the first day, the trip starts with 10 people pushing the wagon, the wagon weight is fairly divided among the 10, and the load travels fairly easily with 10 people pushing. That first day, they travel 20 miles.

On that 2nd day they realize that there are snakes on their paths, and they can’t be on the look out for snakes when you are busy pushing the wagon. No one wanted to be bitten by a snake, so it was agreed and voted on that "Nancy" would be walk ahead of the wagon with a club protect the others from any snakes that they might come across. That second day, they travel 18 miles.

As they go along, with 1 snake protector and 9 people pushing, they realize they aren't always taking the best path for their trip, and it is suggested that one person walks far ahead of the group to find good routes to push the wagon. It is voted upon and agreed that this is best way to proceed. “Harry” is elected to be the pathfinder of the group, with Nancy protecting the 8 other people pushing the wagon from snakes. That 3rd day, they travel 20 miles.

The trip continues on with 1 pathfinder, 1 snaker, and 8 wagon pushers. Sally is an older person, who has trouble with her feet. It is suggested that it might be better if Sally just rides on the wagon instead of pushing the wagon. "Sally doesn't weigh allot, and she doesn’t push that hard anyways". Thus the group votes decides that "Sally" can ride on the wagon. The 7 people can still push the wagon, even with Sally on the wagon. On the 4th they travel 19 miles.

The next day, Barney complains that he is just older than Sally, and he too has trouble with his feet. Barney points out that he weighs even less than Sally, and says that he was barely pushing the wagon at all. Initially folks didn't want Barney to ride on the wagon also, but he kept complaining, and they said it would not be fair if we allowed “Sally” to ride and not Barney. So they relented voted to allow him to ride on the wagon. Thus there were 1 pathfinder, 1 snaker, 2 riders and 6 people pushing the wagon. The 6 wagon pushers are now having a hard time pushing the wagon, but they can still do it. That 5th day they and the wagon traveled 14 miles.

The next day, they continued their trip with 1 pathfinder, 1 snaker, 2 riders and 6 people pushing the wagon. Early in the morning, “Kelly” steps in a gopher hole and breaks her ankle. “Kelly” can’t walk and needs to ride on the wagon also. The other 5 complain that it will be very hard for them to push the wagon with 3 people on it. They were reminded that it was agreed upon as the trip started that if someone was injured that they would help them and push them on the wagon. The remaining 5 pushers asked to vote on others to help push, but the other 5 had no interested in helping push, thus they couldn’t agree to change the rules. Thus the trip continued with 1 pathfinder, 1 snakers, 3 riders, and 5 pushers. That 6th day the pushers managed to push the wagon 8 miles, and were worn out afterwards.

The 7th day, the 5 non pushers woke up and found that the 5 pushers have grabbed their bags of supplies and left them and the wagon. Now the wagon had 5 people, none of them interested in pushing, and they all died. (or they grabbed their own stuff and carried their own loads and survived.)

This analogy is the way the socialism and their big government agenda is treats the taxpayers. It is easy for us to accept each and every small step of socialism in terms of humanism. The taxpayer can only push and toil so much and carry so many folks on our backs before folks get up and look to leave. I am not a millionaire, but I am a taxpayer. I know that when democrats keep attacking and villianising the hard working people that do make good money, those people can and will leave, or stop pushing the wagon. And then they will be less of us to push the wagon full of riders.

Everyone is for education, everyone is for helping the less fortunate, everyone is for defense, but Private Business (Pushers) can only pay or carry so much of a load. We as a country do create jobs, the lighter the load that the goverment burdens us with. Goverment can get too big, and drowning out private business. Eventually goverment has too enslave the 5 wagon pushers or the wagon doesn't move. There is a right size for goverment so that the country can move forward. More goverment isn't the solution to the economic problems and ultimately won't create jobs.

Oregon Trail FTW
 
The problem with your wagon arguement is that you don't indicate the alternative.

Sally gets left behind and the other nine keep her goods? After all she wont need them when the snakes get her.

The later when the nine get to their destination they realise that Sally knew all the poisonous plants that they shouldn't eat.

============

The USA has the most expensive health care in the world. Malpractice insurance is astronomical too. It isn't all bad as the standard of care accessible to those with the resources is probably the best in the world too. Capitalism did all of that: the good and the bad.

But a lot of Sallys get left behind.
 
This is not a Dem or GOP issue, it is a PEOPLE issue. We are/have been the most advanced country in the world and yet we have folks who cannot AFFORD to get sick. Now we have a bill that guarantees coverage for all and people still gripe. There are no death panels. The GOP needs to stop pandering and LYING to the masses about what this bill is. Do you realize that the GOP members of Congress voted 100% ag'st this bill. Not a single one of them crossed lines.

I say give this a chance. If many other countries around the world can have a working medical pkg for all the people, then why can't we?

Keith
 
The problem with your wagon arguement is that you don't indicate the alternative.

Sally gets left behind and the other nine keep her goods? After all she wont need them when the snakes get her.

The later when the nine get to their destination they realise that Sally knew all the poisonous plants that they shouldn't eat.

============

The USA has the most expensive health care in the world. Malpractice insurance is astronomical too. It isn't all bad as the standard of care accessible to those with the resources is probably the best in the world too. Capitalism did all of that: the good and the bad.

But a lot of Sallys get left behind.

Woo, NoPoke for prime minister!

This is not a Dem or GOP issue, it is a PEOPLE issue. We are/have been the most advanced country in the world and yet we have folks who cannot AFFORD to get sick. Now we have a bill that guarantees coverage for all and people still gripe. There are no death panels. The GOP needs to stop pandering and LYING to the masses about what this bill is. Do you realize that the GOP members of Congress voted 100% ag'st this bill. Not a single one of them crossed lines.

I say give this a chance. If many other countries around the world can have a working medical pkg for all the people, then why can't we?

Keith

You can be his... Lord Chief Justice? [del]Dunno what head honcho law dude is called actually in the UK (I should know this)[/del] (I checked and was right, yay!)

It astounds me that people are against this on a cost issue when there are very real benefits for a lot of people. As is obvious, the costs in America are grossly inefficient as well, so ultimately everyoner should benefit in the long term (long-term budget deficit is helped by this as well isn't it?)
 
The point of the wagon argument is that Dem's keep courting votes by offering RIDES on the WAGON. The Goverment and Social Entitlements can only be a so large as a percentage of the Private Sector before the Tax Paying part of the Country can't withstand it any more. This isn't a issue of want to pay higher taxes any more, it is the reality that when people do pay all these taxes, they don't buy private sector goods, the economy and private sector job's don't grow, and it is a DEATH spiral for the Country. In it's place becomes a Socialism and State Control economy like CUBA or North Korea.

Govt Spending didn't solve the Great DEPRESSION, unfornately, World War II is what brought the US back to a Full Employment status.

This goverment actions in the last year has done nothing but add to the number of people riding on the Wagon, and not just in the short run, but the LONG run. And because they plan on using Debt to finance there actions in stimulus, Job's Bills, unemployment, there will be a WAGON full of dead weight that the YOUNG PEOPLE on this board will have to PAY FOR and PUSH this dead weight of US DEBT when it is there turn to push the wagon.
 
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Uhhh, Rob? WW2 was nothing BUT Government spending...

Actual production v. the various Works Act which only patched over and prolonged the Depression by creating a pattern of cyclical unemployment wherever money was tossed without producing "goods" -- you can argue that it produced edifices, but the difference in how money was distributed (and they regulated the spending of the worker's pay!) still separates it.

tl;dr -- FDR toyed with economic theories, Depression didn't lift. WWII comes, Depression ends because genuine production/consumption increase.

I read over a few summaries of the bill. I see in it a similar flaw we see in Social Security: the young subsidize the old. However, in this case, it is the infirm. Many students, fresh out of college, opt out of health insurance if they aren't on their family plan -- it's costly, and they're young and healthy, so it makes sense to avoid the cost until it makes sense to purchase coverage.

Under mandatory coverage, they must get coverage of some sort -- they're forced to buy into the risk pool. Effectively, the government is forcing the subsidizing of the high risk people (who would have been turned away due to pre-existings or what-have-you) upon the shoulders of American 20-somethings. I don't know the math, so perhaps, unlike SS, this isn't a pyramid scheme reliant on more workers earning more to subsidize older generations, however, I fear for when we undergo a demographic shift, and there are fewer of these twentysomethings to take the rest of America on their shoulders.
 
Uhhh, Rob? WW2 was nothing BUT Government spending...

During WWII, Amerika and most of the world entered a phase of broad goverment controls. USA increased it persons in the military to a heavy degree, and also increase production of war materials.
-Draft and Enlistment into Armed Services
-Wage Controls
-Price Controls
-Major Rationing
-Heavy Push to Buy US Debt. (War Bonds)

Thus for the US to put it's industrial capacity to work for the War Effort there was a major errosion of individual freedom to support the war effor.

We call the generation of WWII the greatest generation for a reason. I don't see us today completely understanding what sacrifices were made. Only in the context of the tradgedy and casualties of WWII, does one realize what at stake to avoid another true world war. Iraq and Afganistan although has death, casualties, and sacrifice, the scale isn't what the world went through during WWII.
 
The one crucial thing your clever - albeit over-simplified - narration ignores is the fact that all of those things you listed developed over several decades, and were not crammed down the throats of the American people in an instant.

The:

Department of Energy
FCC
NOAA
Department of Agriculture
FDA
National Institute of Standards and Technology
Naval Observatory
National Highway Safety Traffic Administration
Depts. of Transportation
EPA
Federal Reserve
Postal Service
Board of Education

...Were all, with the exception of the Department of Education, institutions that evolved over a very long period of time. What the current health care bill is futilely attempting to do is cram in much more than most of those listed entities did in decades of their existence.

As a result, you actually have whole municipalities exempt from payment, and - as always - entirely unrelated filth being packaged into health care reform, such as student loans.

Cute post OP, but health care reform ought to come in incremental, gradual fashion, where each and every one of the major issues is solved one at a time. God help us for there being no tort reform.
 
Cyrus,

I hope you get your wish, for incremental health care reform.

I hope that this was the first step on the path to a single payer, universal health care, option.

I haven't visited the RTC since November 2008, leading up to the elections.

Although we disagreed on nearly everything politically, I admired the passion and civility of Boofu.

Is he still around?

John
PokeDad
 
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Ahhh but Pokedad, the critical thing here is this:

"...every one of the major issues is solved one at a time"

I think we all agree that student loans in North Dakota (for the sake of one example) are not a "major issue." Likewise, I think we all agree that this has nothing directly to do with health care reform, and almost nothing indirectly.

This bill in its current form is a step back for substantive reform.

Regardless, my homework is reading this monster from start to finish, word for word. I'll see you all in two days, when I'm the walking encyclopedia on this bill.
 
Rob: I love you man! (ala the Budweiser commercials - don't get hinky on me)

The health care law just passed and signed states that health insurance will be made mandatory. It will be law that everyone must buy health insurance. I’m not sure of the date this goes into effect because this law is being phased in over time, but health insurance will be mandatory just like car insurance is now. I’ve heard a lot of people argue both sides of this. “Auto insurance is mandatory so why isn’t health insurance?” “Because owning a car is a choice.” These arguments do not address the real issue with mandatory health insurance and that is what about people like my daughter? She is unemployed (20 % unemployment in her area), unmarried (living with her boyfriend), and not in school. How can she be forced to buy health insurance? This law is nothing but a stepping stone to a public option, and per Rob’s argument we can see how that is bad.
 
. How can she be forced to buy health insurance?

My understanding is that there will be subsidies for low income people and exemptions for very low/no income people.

As for the legality/constitutionality of making people buy something, that's concerning to me as well.
 
Consitution is been ignored and will be continued to be ignored.
This could be the exact moment in History when the consitution that we grew up believing in stop being relevant.
 
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