afstandopleren
New Member
I wanted to take the survey but I'm from Europe so I'm just responding to the Poll.
Survey - Donk'd - Turn 1 or 2 loss in Championship Events
- Thread starter bulbasnore
- Start date
starcharge
New Member
Sableye is the true T1 donk. G's are T2. But once you get Machamp and Kingdra into play, there's no stoppin' them. Put short, DONKS MUST BE STOPED!
GengarPwns
Member
Loooooolllll i love the picture.
Donking stop me from cutting at regs.
Donking stop me from cutting at regs.
annisarich
New Member
If the format has a lot of T1 decks you need to plan to play them.
We have added some extra basics to our decks and in this format we dont play , for instance, a stage two deck that last season we would have built with a 3-2-3 line is now a 4--2-3 or 4-3-3....
I guess I dont see the format as a problem. Every year there is "something wrong with the format" . I think what they are really saying is " I dont know how to build a deck to compete consistantly in this format"
We have added some extra basics to our decks and in this format we dont play , for instance, a stage two deck that last season we would have built with a 3-2-3 line is now a 4--2-3 or 4-3-3....
I guess I dont see the format as a problem. Every year there is "something wrong with the format" . I think what they are really saying is " I dont know how to build a deck to compete consistantly in this format"
yoyofsho16
New Member
Dave Schwimmer puts it best... "WIN MORE GAMES."
If your chance at Worlds REALLY is lost due to a donk (which is clearly outlandish and a false situation to make people believe your opinion), then you should have just won more games against non-donk decks. Donks have always been a part of the game, and usually happen when you get a bad start.
Why not just fix your deck instead of complaining and making rules? I've been donked in tournaments at least 5 times or so this season, and I am not complaining, because instead of complaining, I actually SOLVED THE PROBLEM. Isn't that weird?
I did the following to my decks:
-Considered Call Energy
-Added Basics
-Scrapped the deck if it was too vulnerable to donks
Sure, you might feel bad about scrapping an entire deck due to donks, but it is called METAGAME.
The popularity of donks right now is all part of the metagame. We have built our decks based upon metagame for years, so why not do that now for donks?
Complain all you want or actually make a difference. I chose "What's the problem?"
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Can you give some examples of States and Regionals wins in this case?
The same people are winning. Donks aren't stopping them, why aren't they stopping you?
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Xuii2-the-cleric
New Member
if they hav a donk affect in there attack it should hav some moreb energy to do that so its not just one turn and not so fast like gengar its fast but the only basic it can donk is a caterpie
they should be stoped or reprited to hav more energy to do that attack
Xuii, donk hatter
they should be stoped or reprited to hav more energy to do that attack
Xuii, donk hatter
It was tuff but you could beat it (unlike donks). This is why most players played a Jirachi Ex.
The basic issue here is whether people would rather lose because of something within or beyond their control. Most people do not like losing because of something beyond their control since it makes them feel helpless. At the high end, donking makes people feel like they're playing bingo instead of Pokémon.
baby mario
Front Page Article Editor<br><a href="http://pokeg
I'm not sure how to answer.
I don't mind donks that happen cos someone gets a god hand once in a while . . . luck is part of the game.
I don't mind donks that happen cos someone is daft enough to run 4-6 Basics.
What I DO mind is cards that are DESIGNED to get donk wins with little or no skill required. Just because luck is part of the game, that's no reason to ramp up the luck factor even more.
Sableye doesn't can't donk much except Gastly and Duskull unless you get a great hand full of Crobats. Rampardos has the disadvantage of being a Fossil, Kingdra fails to donk a lot of Basics (especially SP Pokemon) without Bats and/or PlusPowers.
The real problem as far as I am concerned is Machamp. This is a card MADE for donking (seriously, anyone who says they would play it if it didn't have Take Out is either lying, or makes very bad deck choices). It hurts all decks that run Basics (which is all decks), and there is NO reliable and practical counter. Playing 4 Unown G can actually increase your chances of being donked , and the only decks which can practically run 15+ Basics and Call are G decks. Those people who claim they have made their deck donkproof without messing it up completely . . . wow, they are obviously geniuses who win every tournament they enter.
This is a problem because it leads to too many games that are over in 30 seconds. This is not fun for anyone except people with attention span problems. I don't even think it's much fun to win that way . . . I play Pokemon cos I enjoy playing games that last more than 2 turns.
I am not in favour of changing the rules just because of one or two cards that make the game less fun to play. I also know for sure that nothing is going to change until those cards get rotated out. Donks will always happen in Pokemon, I just hope that in future they are not deliberately made into such a huge part of the game. It makes for a lot less enjoyment for a lot of players.
I don't mind donks that happen cos someone gets a god hand once in a while . . . luck is part of the game.
I don't mind donks that happen cos someone is daft enough to run 4-6 Basics.
What I DO mind is cards that are DESIGNED to get donk wins with little or no skill required. Just because luck is part of the game, that's no reason to ramp up the luck factor even more.
Sableye doesn't can't donk much except Gastly and Duskull unless you get a great hand full of Crobats. Rampardos has the disadvantage of being a Fossil, Kingdra fails to donk a lot of Basics (especially SP Pokemon) without Bats and/or PlusPowers.
The real problem as far as I am concerned is Machamp. This is a card MADE for donking (seriously, anyone who says they would play it if it didn't have Take Out is either lying, or makes very bad deck choices). It hurts all decks that run Basics (which is all decks), and there is NO reliable and practical counter. Playing 4 Unown G can actually increase your chances of being donked , and the only decks which can practically run 15+ Basics and Call are G decks. Those people who claim they have made their deck donkproof without messing it up completely . . . wow, they are obviously geniuses who win every tournament they enter.
This is a problem because it leads to too many games that are over in 30 seconds. This is not fun for anyone except people with attention span problems. I don't even think it's much fun to win that way . . . I play Pokemon cos I enjoy playing games that last more than 2 turns.
I am not in favour of changing the rules just because of one or two cards that make the game less fun to play. I also know for sure that nothing is going to change until those cards get rotated out. Donks will always happen in Pokemon, I just hope that in future they are not deliberately made into such a huge part of the game. It makes for a lot less enjoyment for a lot of players.
SlimeyGrimey
New Member
Yeah, I had the same problem for the 07/08 format. I wanted to leave all the boxes blank, but was forced to pick something.
I also think for the question "X% of games end in donks" <10% is too low, but 25% is too high. Similar problem for "the person that goes first loses the game". I feel this definitely is the case more than 50% of the time due to the substantial advantage of going second, but I don't think it's the case 75% of the time. Maybe 60-65%.
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This.
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Cactourniquet
New Member
When I started playing this game I was shocked to hear that Turn 1 wins were possible. Realizing that donks depend entirely on luck, I decided it wasn't that bad...until I went to my first official event, Oregon States. I was surprised to learn that we would only be playing one game each round. I had assumed we would be doing best 2 out of 3 games, which would help nullify the luck factor of donk decks.
I piloted a modified version of VanderHatter that had Sableye in it. His inclusion was not to allow donks, but to give me a strong set up with his Impersonate ability. Also, I thought that playing Looker's Investigation on my opponent on the first first turn was pretty solid, especially against donk decks. Anyway, in one of the later rounds I was paired against a Kingdra player, and I donked him with Sableye versus his lone Unown G. This was my first donk, and it was entirely unintentional. I couldn't believe that I had won on the first turn against a deck that was designed to do just that. I went on to make the top cut, where I lost to much better player (which is what should happen).
Before attending Oregon States, I had literally only played about 15 full games of Pokemon. The fact that I was able to luck my way into the top 16 astonishes me. If we were talking about Magic: The Gathering, this could never happen. In Magic, you always play best 2 out of 3 games, which means you have to be very lucky to beat a better player with a better deck.
I've noticed that non-donk Pokemon games often take a lot longer than your average game of Magic, so best 2 out of 3 might not be viable for Pokemon. However, I think it is the best solution to the donk problem, and wouldn't even require a rules change. Playing best 2 out of 3 matches pushes the game further towards skill and away from luck -- especially when compared to Magic, I think Pokemon is a game that's getting dangerously close to luck over skill.
I piloted a modified version of VanderHatter that had Sableye in it. His inclusion was not to allow donks, but to give me a strong set up with his Impersonate ability. Also, I thought that playing Looker's Investigation on my opponent on the first first turn was pretty solid, especially against donk decks. Anyway, in one of the later rounds I was paired against a Kingdra player, and I donked him with Sableye versus his lone Unown G. This was my first donk, and it was entirely unintentional. I couldn't believe that I had won on the first turn against a deck that was designed to do just that. I went on to make the top cut, where I lost to much better player (which is what should happen).
Before attending Oregon States, I had literally only played about 15 full games of Pokemon. The fact that I was able to luck my way into the top 16 astonishes me. If we were talking about Magic: The Gathering, this could never happen. In Magic, you always play best 2 out of 3 games, which means you have to be very lucky to beat a better player with a better deck.
I've noticed that non-donk Pokemon games often take a lot longer than your average game of Magic, so best 2 out of 3 might not be viable for Pokemon. However, I think it is the best solution to the donk problem, and wouldn't even require a rules change. Playing best 2 out of 3 matches pushes the game further towards skill and away from luck -- especially when compared to Magic, I think Pokemon is a game that's getting dangerously close to luck over skill.
yoyofsho16
New Member
1. Being 161st in the country is not "on the edge" when there are only 25 spots.
2. I was donked the first round of top 8, and they both contributed to a round of states for each SC I went to. I have been donked. I also take offense here: Saying I have no say in this matter because I am a senior is irrelevant. If this thread were about masters it would be, but it isn't, it is about the game in general. And believe me, ask your brother, in seniors there a LOT more scrubs net decking Machamp than Masters. by far. We are facing the same meta, and it is outlandish to say being a Senior changes that.
3. Donks are part of the meta. Whether they SHOULD be or not isn't part of the question, the fact is that they are, and you have to adjust. Even though they happen, there are ways to tilt a matchup in your favor. Your statement about adding more basics decreasing consistency is true, but that is also part of metagame. You have to find a perfect balance between counters and consistency.
4. So... you pretty much have no proof. Yes, the same people are winning.
Ross is still winning, Holton is still winning, Omar is still winning, (locally) Pramawat is still winning, Rabus is still winning, etc. People win consistently. The same people are consistently doing well that always have. Others might slip in and win every now and then, but over all the CONSISTENT winners are the same.
Well said and nice take on things. I have been decent in Magic in the past and have won in Pokemon, so I know how each of these games work. It is much easier to get donked in Pokemon than it is Magic. The people bringing up Turn 1 wins in the past and things like that for MTG haven't ever won in competitive tournaments. Magic is far superior as far as skill is concerned. Pokemon will never match it, but there could definitely be some things done to descrease the luck factor. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that's what everyone wants. This is still a kid's game, despite Masters more than doubling Juniors and Seniors at almost every tournament in the U.S. all season. Until either the economics prove that 15+ year olds buy more cards and support the game further than 14- year olds, age divisions change and/or the game goes in another direction, we are not going to see significant rule or format changes to gear this game toward skill. It's a fact. Thanks for your opinion.
hehe. =D
DarthPika: If you're only losing 20 points to a "scrub" as you claimed earlier, count yourself lucky. I lost about 50 points from my two losses in Regionals, and only gained 57 from my seven wins. Your supposed "scrub" was probably pretty close to your rating if you only lost 20 points to him.
I've been T1'd twice this year, out of 85 games. All of my decks have coincidentally had 15+ basics and/or 4 Call, plus a lot of other outs to get out of bad starts.
When designing a deck, donkability is the first thing I take into account. 100 hp basics are probably safe from Kingdra. 2-3 Unown G or a Toxicroak line improves your chances of surving a fast Machamp. Or! Just run pokemon that evolve. Machamp kinda fails against Kingdra, Gengar, Dusknoir, and Beedrill.
I enjoyed the survey. My answer to the poll: What's the problem?
Iinin_Hero
New Member
Agreed. Whats the problem? Pokémon is bad game.
If you want counter T1 or T2 decks, play Dialga G or Gaslty SF. Trainer-lock, k thx bye.
My deck Gastly/Kabutops >>> T1 / T2 decks. :b
And what is this whining? Next season is SP-format.
Gastly / Kabutops
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Scipio
New Member
I think an underestimated point is the current Top Cut system. When you are on the high end of players that NOT allow a bigger top cut (14/15 players, 28-31 players, 55-63 players, those kind of numbers) then you KNOW that a T1 loss basically spells "No Top Cut For You". If that happens within 5 seconds, yeah...
Donks kill the game. Its that simple. When you play a deck of which any combination of 17 (!) cards can avoid the donk yet you still get T1'd twice in one match...that says a lot.
Donks must go.
Donks kill the game. Its that simple. When you play a deck of which any combination of 17 (!) cards can avoid the donk yet you still get T1'd twice in one match...that says a lot.
Donks must go.
