Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Worlds '05 Biggest Waste of Time :: Top 8 for 15+ Grinders only made it to Big Event

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People moving up age groups in between Regionals and Worlds is unfair three ways.

It's unfair to the 10 or 14 year-olds that are forced to prepare for a higher age division in two months.

It's unfair to us that go to the grinder where the absolute least possible number of people actually get invites to worlds.

Lastly, it's unfair to you, where you have to alter the number of people allowed to participate in worlds just so you can fulfill your promise of 8 people making it in from the grinder.
 
2 things
1st worlds is over so please stop complaining.

2nd a possible solution to the spamming is grandfathering the players in to the age group they qualified in.

and like my sig says 0-5 forfiting to a no show, its a new low for me but there was the side events and volenteering. i was not able to win a trip either because I judged and i would not trade that either GLB and Gardylady are the coolest people that I could want to know and felt it a privlegde to be a judge for both of them.
 
I say... just be thankful that you had the opportunity to try and compete for Worlds and what-not.

Even though I live like what... 2 hours away from San Diego, I couldn't make it because of other work-related responsiblities and I couldn't back out of them.

I am definetly planning for next year though. =)
 
A different perspective.

No matter how much we may not like it time is a limited quantity. Without a second judge team I don't see how it would be possible to have the grinder run significantly longer.

Had only 100 or fewer 15+ entered the grinder then the players saying that the grinder was a waste of time might not be quite so vocal.

250 entrants in 15+ probably exceeded POPs expectations.

The 'problem' is one of success not failure. May we continue to have such problems!
 
I hate to say this simply...but we are all missing the EASIEST solution of all....

ELIMINATE THE GRINDER.

It is a needless toll taken on the judging staff, PUI and everyone else involved.

I love you all, but the invite to Worlds is supposed to be won in QUALIFYING tourneys.

The Grinder has always seemed to me to be an unnecessary back door to fill more seats in the younger age divsions.

If you want to keep the grinder, here is an even simpler solution...eliminate the 15+ grinder. Not enough seats are available for them, and they are the group that is the biggest toll on the judging staff, PUI, and everyone else involved.

At what cost? Well, we would have people like Lawman stepping up to staff/volunteer right away instead of suffer through a tourney, and have his status "uncertain" until he was eliminated.

Keith, I hear you on having to judge all qualifying events, rather than play...but ideally that is what we are there for, keeping the game strong for our kids, and enjoyable for our kids, and not worrying about what we can get out of the game! I had to drive with my kids to WISCONSIN to actually play in a Regional this year...and enjoyed sitting on the other side of the fence...seeing the good and the bad in how other people run events.

I can tell you this. I was SOOOO thankful to have Matt T. take my spot in the Grinder in 2005. I got to HJ the 15+ division in 2004, and really thought I missed the Worlds event, the whole thing. By Sunday, I was glad the event was over, because after judging a late night grinder, all day at Worlds, and all the way to the finals match in 11-14, I was BEAT. This year, since my wife was not with me to help with the kids, I got to skip the grinder, enjoy the reception, and have a really good burst of energy for Saturday and Sunday...and enjoyed Worlds a LOT more, and think I was a more effective Worlds Judge!!

Just my 2 cents....

Rant away.

M45
 
Meganium45 said:
here is an even simpler solution...eliminate the 15+ grinder.
Click to expand...

Really? Do you think that is the BEST solution? Don't you remember what happened when wizards did something like this, but to a slightly larger degree?

The game DIED, that's what happened.
 
No way ~_~
252 people showed up to grind, it was more popular than nationals, i seriously doubt POP would be foolish enough to eliminate the grinder

i flew from florida to go to it, the judges are dedicated, but so am i. i spent 900 of a teenager's dollars going there, not to mention travelling up and down florida and the southern east coast to qualify... spent a lot of time, money, and energy

the grinders at worlds attracted a few HUNDRED people, and the more people going to events, the better for the game

do NOT eliminate the 15+ grinder, 15+ is what holds this game together
 
OMG Vince! The Grinder is the second most important tournament of the year. How about open more slots in Worlds or not give as many trips and save those slots for the Grinder(I'd rather pay my own way for a better chance in the Grinder than a smaller chance at a single tournament) or change the ages divisions, eliminate the 18+, and start a Pro-Tour. All better ideas than eliminating the Grinder. It is one of the main reasons I keep trying at this game because I know that I always have a shot in the Grinder at the end of the year. I can't say any more because of my Professor agreement, but there is one more much simpler answer.
 
I have always been AGAINST the idea of the grinder, where a person who could not qualify during the event season gets a chance to qualify for the big dance.

Hmmm...let's analyze...how does having a grinder help the game?

1st. PUI charges $0 for the event, yet wastes valuable resources putting it on (200+++ staff hours)
2nd PUI does not make any money on the travel for any of the participants
3rd There are PLENTY of chances in the US for people to qualify for trips
4th Having grinder invites DILUTES the main event, allowing people in who would not have qualified to do so.

If we keep the grinder (which I am sure we will, the elimination thread, although logical, was meant for shock value) I think we should limit the number of participants who get into worlds. 8 was about perfect for 15+. This is a last chance grinder.

If you have already missed several chances at trips, this should definitely not be your "easy" way in.

Qualifying for Worlds in a Worlds Qualifier event should still COUNT for something (yes, even those who qualify in a 4 person 10- field!!!) That's why we have the qualifiers!!!

Playing in Worlds is not a right, it is an EARNED PRIVELIDGE!

Oh, and 15+ holds the game together? I think not! 15+ are usually the players that are hawking the angles, and if anything making the game more difficult for the judges and everyone else they are around. It is the TOs, LLs and PTOs along with the PUI staff who hold OP together. We are the ones who put the events together, and carry them out for your benefit (and love doing so).

Talk with you soon.

M45
 
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The good thing about the Grinder is that if you miss out on Worlds you are in the #1 area in the World for Pokemon anyway. You get to trade a lot, play in side-events like pre-releases, cheer up your friends/family that did make it into Worlds (even if you've got tears in your eyes...), you get stuff signed and meet lotsa pokemon characters (I mean human ones, although the fluffy ones are nice too).

I know ppl who spent $2000 going to worlds (yes, that's 5 days at Hotel and airplane to/from Oslo, Norway), and went 4-1 in the Grinder... and STILL came home happy from Worlds... But without the Grinder.., you'll miss the icing on the cake and many will probably stay at home... a little adjustment to the age brackets is my 5 cents...
 
Vince,

I think that your visions are somewhat warranted. However, all of your children are under 15. They took ALL the 10- and a decent amount of 11-14, certainly more than the 15+. I mean, it is frustrating for someone to come so close so many times and just miss it barely and come for one final chance to get in. How does that make them a bad player?

Case en pointe, Stephanie:
She gets 2nd at two GCs, 3rd at another, makes top cuts left and right, T32 at Nationals. I guess she's a "bad" player then who "foolishly" looked for another chance into the Last Chance Grinder.
I believe that as long as there is an overwhelming support of players in the 15+ catagory, the Grinder needs to stay open. I don't see how eight people "diluted" the main event. =/

The Last Chance Grinder was a farse. A huge waste of time, it really was. Instead of raising people's hopes when they KNEW how many players they were going to take in, they should have made it single elimination and saved everyone several hours of time. Gimme a break.

~Gym
 
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Ah Gymbo...you have to make the one exception to my rule...

Little Stephanie, who plays in that area near north east ohio...north east ohio, doesn't that stand for something? :wink:

Diluted Worlds, not necessarily due to the 8 15+ they let in...but MAYBE due to the 42 10- they let in (even ones who went 0-3 in the Grinder =/ )

I have NO DOUBT that the 15+ who made it through the grinder were great players, who could hold their own, but did they deserve to? Did they make it in like the REST of the players?

Every year there are PLENTY of great players sitting on the outside looking in....just the way of the Worlds...

My point is that having a grinder CHEAPENS the ability to play in the Worlds event....what about that poor kid in Kansas who finished 2nd in 2 straight Gyms...and could not fly out, does he deserve less of a shot at Worlds?

Yeah, yeah, so your "companions" do not get to play for the chance to get into worlds....isn't the point of having a companion with a player under 18 the ability to enjoy worlds with the younger player, and keep tabs on the younger player, not simply a ticket to try and qualify "Again" for worlds...

Oh, and yeah, I have younger players, and I no longer compete, but I run events for the betterment of the Pokemon community...giving something back...

How much did I charge for the Piglet Draft? To draft 6 packs of cards, including Unseen Forces, which I donated? And how many of my kids (or Greg Sauk's kids who helped run the event) played in the event??? NONE. For the good of the game....and the younger players.

OK, getting tired now...

Vince
 
NEO isn't the only tough place to play, there are places like florida with absolutely NO predictable metagame whatsoever... from threads i've seen, and the other places i've travelled to... most other regionas have a somewhat stable metagame... some players will play the same decks, or you can see gradual change in decks, but I can guarantee you that in every florida tournament there is, ever next tournament, everyone is playing a completely different deck with no communication. Not to mention our 11-14 divisions is one of the best in the country, all five of our 11-14 kids who went to worlds got into t32.

Qualifiying is almost like worlds, luck of the draw to see if you have to play your counters (here at least).

I think grinders should be this desperate last shot to get into worlds, for those players who are good and deserve that final shot. there are dozens of examples, im sure, where better players are left out, why not give them the final chance if they're willing to try to get there?

SOme regions of the country are just harder, I'd love to go to some no-name part of the country and play a GC and win it, but i don't live there... and i'm glad i at least dont live in ohio, where there's some project under nintendo to raise these gods of the card game or something.

I think grinders should stay, and they undoubtedly will. They might be a few extra hours for the judges, but think about the hours other people couldve taken to get there, like my friend alex hill raising 900 dollars on minimum wage by HIMSELF over the course of 2 months to get him to worlds, after being in debt from travelling to various states to try to qualify.

if such adn such player can't afford it, oh well, it's bad luck for them, they cant help it, just like another player can't help living in an exceptionally difficult part of the country to qualify.

grinder should stay, just wish there was a better way to do it so that it could be run faster, with less people, and yeah.
 
ryanvergel said:
I think grinders should be this desperate last shot to get into worlds, for those players who are good and deserve that final shot. there are dozens of examples, im sure, where better players are left out, why not give them the final chance if they're willing to try to get there?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think next season we'll run a bunch of different "desperate last shot" tournaments to allow players to qualify. We'll call them... "Gym Challenges."
 
Gymbo ex said:
The Last Chance Grinder was a farse. A huge waste of time, it really was. Instead of raising people's hopes when they KNEW how many players they were going to take in, they should have made it single elimination and saved everyone several hours of time. Gimme a break.
Click to expand...

You guys keep harping on this issue that we 'knew' how many we were taking. Main event check in did not end until 7pm. Even at that, we had a few players trickling in. Once that was done, it took about 1/2 hour for ME to generate the report of how many players had checked in, and how many were marked for late check in. Then, doing the math, I was able to figure out how many slots were available, and make adjustments to have room for error.

So, it was about 8pm before we knew exactly how many slots were available. It was VERY clear prior to that how many would get in in 10-, so they were notified.

If you guys want single elimination, fine, that's what we'll do. But, I doubt that's really the case, as it sure is nice for those people who seem to actually enjoy playing the game to be able to keep playing, even though they've been eliminated.

Trust me, single elimination is MUCH easier for us to run, so maybe that's what we'll do next year for 15+ since the group is obviously so displeased with our doing exactly what we said we would do in this 'farce' of an event.

Thanks,
Prof. Dav
 
M_Liesik said:
Yeah, I think next season we'll run a bunch of different "desperate last shot" tournaments to allow players to qualify. We'll call them... "Gym Challenges."
Click to expand...


I like your style :tongue:

the grinder was single elimination, we just didnt know it. it probably will be 8 let-in next year too, since im sure the invitees will show up since there are trips awarded too. do what you guys want to do, if a lot of people will pay to grind next year, they;re showing support financially, and thats the truest sign of decision support
 
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the website for wqorlds even said the top 8 will make it to the main event in the grinder, so it wasnt a surprise that it was only top 8. the Worlds website also didnt say top 8- varying on attendence
 
The main problem is not that POP didn't carry out what it promised-that most certainly happened, and our grinder people finished strong (three 5-3's and a top 16 at least). However, people's complaints are brought about mainly because of the overly-inflated grinder of last year's worlds. The top 32 people were let in, which was actually a shock to most people.

Perhaps I can best link this to giving a very thirsty person a can of coca-cola one day, and then giving him a can of diet coca-cola the next. Although both help quench your thirst, still...the Phenylalaline leaves a very bitter taste in your mouth compared to drinking the coke's sugar. =(
 
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Patriarch said:
The main problem is not that POP didn't carry out what it promised-that most certainly happened, and our grinder people finished strong (three 5-3's and a top 16 at least). However, people's complaints are brought about mainly because of the overly-inflated grinder of last year's worlds. The top 32 people were let in, which was actually a shock to most people.

Perhaps I can best link this to giving a very thirsty person a can of coca-cola one day, and then giving him a can of diet coca-cola the next. Although both help quench your thirst, still...the Phenylalaline leaves a very bitter taste in your mouth compared to drinking the coke's sugar. =(
Click to expand...


that hits the nail on the head
 
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