No scholarships and ONE trip for our nationals?

[Otaku]

...chicken and egg.

This is the wrong metaphor for the situation, I think. Sadly, there isn't a long standing metaphor or analogy I am aware of, so I'll compare it to an orchard. It takes a lot of resource investment to get your orchard started; planting and raising the trees until they begin to bear fruit, after which instead of "building them up", you actually invest less resources as you just need to "maintain" them. If they never produce a yield more valuable than their care... you stop tending them and focus on the more fruitful (pardon the pun) trees.

For a more business related approach, think of how many products and services are marketed not as a premium when they are new, but at significant discounts. This is because there is usually an existing product that you have to attract consumers away from... and that sounds like the TCG market. Why should the collector or the player leave their "old" game for something new? Even if they are dissatisfied, investing in a new game is investing in a new game... and if there isn't a good player/collector base, it hurts the viability of a TCG. So early on, the game had to entice players to it.

Pokémon shouldn't need the old prize support, because it is its own thing now... or at least I suspect that is the view of the-powers-that-be. You may disagree with it, I may question it, but it is important that this view is understood. Constantly asking "How can we grow the game without having more invested in it?" is going to hurt your cause; those deciding on resource allocation hear: "All you've spent wasn't enough!" and may decide that your OP infrastructure is more trouble than it is worth!

 

[EXdarkrai01]

Did the guy complaining about the canadian travel award being cut get first place at their nationals? If not why does it matter? He wouldn't have gotten it anyway

 

[desert eagle]

Honestly, it's not just Canada, the prize cuts across the board worldwide are a joke. I don't understand how boosted sales numbers and attendance records can lead to a dramatic decrease in support for organized play. The way P-USA has treated the competitive scene of this game is a farce, it makes absolutely no sense at all.

There should be no reason ever in which you need to be like in the 99.99999999999th percentile simply to play this game without losing money.

 

[cabd]

There should be no reason ever in which you need to be like in the 99.99999999999th percentile simply to play this game without losing money.

Why should a company fund your hobby? That's kind of the point of a hobby game, it's something you pay to get enjoyment out of.

 

[desert eagle]

Why should a company fund your hobby? That's kind of the point of a hobby game, it's something you pay to get enjoyment out of.

Because all other TCGs that have a competitive scene provides adequate prize support in relation to their sales and popularity??

Seriously, how are people OKAY with this, it disgusts me that there isn't more outrage in the community.

 

[Mystery Thing]

Did the guy complaining about the canadian travel award being cut get first place at their nationals? If not why does it matter? He wouldn't have gotten it anyway

For what it's worth, our Nationals hasn't happened yet. It's this weekend.

First place still does get a travel award. We get invites for T4, travel for winner.

 

[Otaku]

I don't understand how boosted sales numbers and attendance records can lead to a dramatic decrease in support for organized play.

That is because you are oversimplifying; costs don't remain the same. If you sell twice as many boosters but are making only half as much profit per booster, you are making the same amount of profit... and if you play with those numbers, you can see how you can have less profit with greater sales.

There should be no reason ever in which you need to be like in the 99.99999999999th percentile simply to play this game without losing money.

There should be no person who takes that argument seriously. It does not rely on factual information nor logical reasoning, and in fact contradicts both. Ignoring your obvious exaggeration, few games give you much chance to recoup all you invest; remember that time is money.

Because all other TCGs that have a competitive scene provides adequate prize support in relation to their sales and popularity??

Do they? This would be more persuasive if you named them and cited the numbers that support this point. Once one factors in the all the costs associated with playing a TCG, even winning the Magic Pro Tour isn't a guarantee you'll "break even".

Seriously, how are people OKAY with this, it disgusts me that there isn't more outrage in the community.

We are "okay" with it because it isn't a problem; we play this game for fun, not to turn a profit. Like most hobbies for most people, we know we either can't turn a profit or that it is at least unlikely. After all, even if a TCG offers enough for some people to win that they could consider it "profitable", it won't apply to every player.

In fact, what disgusts is the notion that playing this game should be all about making money, or even a priority. It is about enjoying a fun hobby; whether that is by proving yourself through winning, through interacting with others, through challenging yourself through creative uses for cards, or any of several other paths. If you are playing this game trying to even break even in terms of money, you're missing the point and probably bad at math.

 

[NoPoke]

...I don't understand how ... attendance records can lead to a dramatic decrease in support for organized play. ......

Easy, attendance has costs.

North America has free events, free to the player that is, not free to OP.
Everywhere has some level of prizing provided and paid for by OP.
Painful truth: our play activity is subsidised by OP.

Result: more events and more players means more costs to OP.

So what of the future? Is NA doomed to suffer decreased support each year or is there a way for growth in OP not to be accompanied by cuts in prizing? THIS IS A TRICKY ISSUE! Why? because NA is addicted to free events for its players. Not just the players either, TPCi marketing is addicted to free: selling "free" is easy. Its not going to be simple to achieve but at some point NA is going to have to go cold turkey on free events. The free events are a tremendous stimulus to growth but having kick started play that was close to extinct at the end of the wotc era staying free imposes a significant cost burden on OP.

 

[P_A]

.....
Pokémon shouldn't need the old prize support, because it is its own thing now... or at least I suspect that is the view of the-powers-that-be. You may disagree with it, I may question it, but it is important that this view is understood. Constantly asking "How can we grow the game without having more invested in it?" is going to hurt your cause; those deciding on resource allocation hear: "All you've spent wasn't enough!" and may decide that your OP infrastructure is more trouble than it is worth!

It's not that people are asking for the old prize support. What it is, is that the sheer number of cuts and the stated reason not to add to Canada's OP budget makes people here ask 'How can we grow the game without having AT LEAST THE SAME AMOUNT AS LAST YEAR invested in it?' And yes, a continued Organized Play requires a constant investment. I have to give TPCi some credit. It certainly is a real juggling act to balance the budget. I have it good as an armchair critic since not only do I not play anymore, but my earlier status as a former PTO gained me a different perspective from some here on this board. However, unfortunately, both those reasons mean that my opinions can be ignored with impunity. In any case, I highly doubt my one voice would be near enough to make them think that "our OP infrastructure is more trouble than it is worth." Suffice it to say that I DO believe in sharing, but at the same time, I also believe that the current deep cuts in prize support are detrimental to the game. :smile: Hey, besides .... what if a few years down the road I end up deciding to get back into pokemon? At this rate, I wonder if there's going to be anything worth coming back for!

Also, as Canadian Nationals aren't over with yet, Desert Eagle - my memory escapes me sometimes but I believe he's one of our former National Champions - I'm sure he's looking forward to Nats, even with the prize cuts.

Edit: Ottawa, thanks for the trip down memory lane. I'm glad I could help.

 

[desert eagle]

That is because you are oversimplifying; costs don't remain the same. If you sell twice as many boosters but are making only half as much profit per booster, you are making the same amount of profit... and if you play with those numbers, you can see how you can have less profit with greater sales.

Why would they be making half as much per booster? That doesn't even make sense, you just fabricated an argument out of nowhere.


There should be no person who takes that argument seriously. It does not rely on factual information nor logical reasoning, and in fact contradicts both. Ignoring your obvious exaggeration, few games give you much chance to recoup all you invest; remember that time is money.


Do they? This would be more persuasive if you named them and cited the numbers that support this point. Once one factors in the all the costs associated with playing a TCG, even winning the Magic Pro Tour isn't a guarantee you'll "break even".

Winning the Magic Pro Tour absolutely guarantees you'll break even for that season. If you are spending over $40,000 in a season, you are either stupid when it comes to money management or you do nothing else but play Magic and just like to travel around to every single event. For the most part, even making top 4 at a Grand Prix gives most competitive players enough money to cover that years expenses. Getting second at a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP covers gas money to like 4 events, which is just ludicrous.

Don't listen to this kid, being one of the top 5% in your game should absolutely ensure you shouldn't be bleeding money just playing it. I'm not saying it should be EASY to cover all your costs, it should at least be possible.

We are "okay" with it because it isn't a problem; we play this game for fun, not to turn a profit. Like most hobbies for most people, we know we either can't turn a profit or that it is at least unlikely. After all, even if a TCG offers enough for some people to win that they could consider it "profitable", it won't apply to every player.

In fact, what disgusts is the notion that playing this game should be all about making money, or even a priority. It is about enjoying a fun hobby; whether that is by proving yourself through winning, through interacting with others, through challenging yourself through creative uses for cards, or any of several other paths. If you are playing this game trying to even break even in terms of money, you're missing the point and probably bad at math.

Don't speak for other people. The game was fun back then when there was adequate prize support because competing for those prizes was what made the game fun. If you want to purely "enjoy this game as a hobby" then just dl the online game, buy some codes, trade for a deck and play online. The National Championships shouldn't be there purely for fun, it should be a legitimate competition. Lowering prizes to this point is just insulting to the players who have been around forever.

Also, if the player base is growing too big to support, either raise support or being charging $5-10 as an entry fee for tournaments to regulate things, it's THAT EASY.

Even if just Masters have to pay an entry fee, it would be absolutely ok if it means getting acceptable prize support for the biggest tournament in our country.

 

[falcom4ever]

I wonder if there's going to be anything worth coming back for!

If you love the game, prizes or not you want to participate to tournaments. Tournaments are meant to have fun or a good challenge in my opinion. Not to make money.

I don't see a lot of sports and games that allow you to have prizes such as travel award/boosters/cards/trophies/binders...

Even if you become a Marathon Gold Medal Olympic Champion, I don't think you get anything but the olympic medal itself...
In fact, for Olympic Games (for example) in order to participate you have to pay yourself the trip/stay. And if you finish 4th at Marathon you get nothing but a "diploma of competences". Olympics will not pay you anything. And this is the kind of thing the billions of people watch on TV all over the world.

So 4th at Pokémon TCG Battle Road has more prizes than the 4th at an Olympic Marathon lol...

Also, if the player base is growing too big to support, either raise support or being charging $5-10 as an entry fee for tournaments to regulate things, it's THAT EASY.

Even if just Masters have to pay an entry fee, it would be absolutely ok if it means getting acceptable prize support for the biggest tournament in our country.

I wouldn't be surprise to see players coming here complaining and saying that the prizes are still not worth.

 

[sdrawkcab]

Easy, attendance has costs.

North America has free events, free to the player that is, not free to OP.
Everywhere has some level of prizing provided and paid for by OP.
Painful truth: our play activity is subsidised by OP.

Result: more events and more players means more costs to OP.

So what of the future? Is NA doomed to suffer decreased support each year or is there a way for growth in OP not to be accompanied by cuts in prizing? THIS IS A TRICKY ISSUE! Why? because NA is addicted to free events for its players. Not just the players either, TPCi marketing is addicted to free: selling "free" is easy. Its not going to be simple to achieve but at some point NA is going to have to go cold turkey on free events. The free events are a tremendous stimulus to growth but having kick started play that was close to extinct at the end of the wotc era staying free imposes a significant cost burden on OP.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind for anything higher than cities.

 

[NoPoke]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind for anything higher than cities.

Isn't that a bit like quitting smoking every other day? It may help but is not going to do anywhere near as much good as quitting entirely. The drug of free play wont be easy to give up.

 

[P_A]

Falcom, even right now, if someone wanted to bring me a deck and have a game with me, I'd still do it. That's not the point I was trying to make. I still enjoy playing the game. I just wonder if by the time I decide to get back into the game if the expenditure would be worth it. In my case, getting prizes worth even 10% of my outlay of money (taking into consideration my poor skills) I think would be worth it, considering all the fun I'd have doing it. I'm not talking about making money like Desert Eagle is. However at the rate the prizes are shrinking (not just here in Canada), pretty soon I wonder if that would be even possible.

And yes, I do realize there are lots of hobbies out there that cost considerably more and end up netting you a whole lot less. But that's not the point now is it?

 

[falcom4ever]

My point is that something > nothing

It's better they put less prizes if it helps to organise more tournaments

 

[Otaku]

It's not that people are asking for the old prize support.

...you sure about that? I was pretty sure that was one of desert eagle's points; wanting at least as much prize support as the game once had.

What it is, is that the sheer number of cuts and the stated reason not to add to Canada's OP budget makes people here ask 'How can we grow the game without having AT LEAST THE SAME AMOUNT AS LAST YEAR invested in it?'

By emphasizing the important parts? Do you know what I used the former prize support for? Getting parents to let their kids play the game they already wanted to play. You grow the game by focusing on it being a fun, social hobby that can be used to teach money management and even investing. Tell me... how do people earn a raise at a job? Performance. Even jobs where you are contractually obligated to get a periodic raise still require you not get yourself fired or choose to quit.

I did not say that this was easy; it is quite hard. Still, it beats having players just in it for the prizes. I've seen first hand what that promotes; while there will still be players there to compete, you attract people just looking to cash in... and unsurprisingly this is very conducive to poor sportsmanship and even flat out cheating and theft. More people are going to succumb to the temptation of (for example) stealing an opponent's deck if it isn't just getting those cards (for personal use or resale) but also because there's a big payout on the line in the top cut.

Hey, besides .... what if a few years down the road I end up deciding to get back into pokemon? At this rate, I wonder if there's going to be anything worth coming back for!

If you're coming back for the right reasons, then it has nothing to do with the level of prize support, unless you are so economically challenged that the only way you can budget playing is if you win enough to cover costs (...which probably means that like me, you shouldn't be playing competitively to begin with :lol. If anything keeps you away from the game, it should be dissatisfaction with the game mechanics or distribution methods... a topic for an entirely different thread.

I think you've made some good points in various posts, but I think you have to remember that there are many people sounding off here; I didn't quote it in the interest of space but you mentioned how "you" weren't speaking for everyone... and a lot of what is being said isn't about you. It isn't just your comments that are giving Canada a black eye here; the sum total of militant "Better prizes or nothing!" is. Especially for being the first time Worlds wasn't in the U.S.

 

[cabd]

http://www.sixprizes.com/2013/06/19/poke-economics-how-much-will-worlds-cost-you/

Very relevant math done here. Canada is more expensive than the US, but ranks well cheaper than pretty much anywhere else.

 

[Mykel]

So... the first time Worlds is held outside of the USA, the host country complains about losing one of two paid trips. Pretty sure the average cost of travel for Canadians to attend Worlds has seen a MASSIVE decrease.

Real classy guys.

An average isn't a magical number you can base all your arguements on.

Worlds is in Vancouver, BC. Nationals is in Toronto, ON.

The majority of those close to worlds aren't even going to nationals, due to the distance. Their cost of attending worlds being cheaper, hence cancelling a free trip for nationals, doesn't make sense.

If you lost prize support, you'd be disappointed too. Regardless of people trying to argue whatever they're arguing in this topic, the loss of prize support is something anyone would be sad about. Are we more fortunate than other countries? Sure! Does that mean we can't be sad when we lose something? No.

 

[Otaku]

If you lost prize support, you'd be disappointed too. Regardless of people trying to argue whatever they're arguing in this topic, the loss of prize support is something anyone would be sad about. Are we more fortunate than other countries? Sure! Does that mean we can't be sad when we lose something? No.

You can be disappointed.

Many of us are irritated by the sense of entitlement displayed in many of the posts.

I mentioned this to someone via PM: this is one of those things you can't really start a message board thread about unless you want to look bad. No matter how right you might be in an issue like this, you end up sounding bad... and it just gets worse the "less right" and "less well behaved" you are.

 

[vegitalian]

Who is Pablo and why is this thread about Mexican poverty and insulting a country with several proven players?

---------- Post added 06/21/2013 at 07:40 PM ----------

Also, take a US tournament then we'll talk