Public Announcement: STRATEGY does NOT = BuildMeAList :/

[LegendCallerL]

One gripe I have with the "limit the new users thing" is that maybe they have read about the basic idea about the game before they signed up. I know people who go on the gym and don't sign up because they don't feel they need to. My sign up date is less than a month ago, but I have read around about the game on this site since awhile ago. You can learn a lot from the gym by reading, not posting, I'll give you that, but sometimes the information you want is not out there yet. You can find loads of information on the top decks, but if you want to build your own, original deck, even if its just for fun, you will probably need to ask on how to make it better. Limiting that might draw people to netdecking if they cannot ask how to improve their own list. I know I should not give advice for decks for sometime, I am still a n00b at this, but does that mean I can't give a good opinion on any part of this forum? Just my opinion, though.

P.S. Anyone else think someone should sticky this?

 

[Swordfish1989]

^And as someone else mentioned earlier, there are members who join here but aren't new to the game at all. There's a lot of people in my play test group who don't have accounts here, yet they're very good players and have done well in this season of cities.

I think ' market forces ' are going to eliminate n00bs who don't know what they're doing/saying. Older, more established members will push them around until they assimilate. People who they may be trying to help with decks, etc, probably won't listen to them because they don't have any credentials. We don't need to ban/limit anything, the community will and can do that.

 

[z-man]

I disagree with having limited access for new members. What happens to <insert name of world champ> who has not made an account? Will he/she be stuck with the other newer members to not see and comment to the more intelligent posts made by you and me? Separating forums would be somewhat bland in general as bad players want to find good help just as much as good players want good discussion. Why would you be terribly mean to stick bad players together? Also, how do you measure a player's skill?

I was on moderating staff for another Pokemon website when they came across the same problem. We kept it very quiet and discussed a few possibilities, and ended up coming up with the following solution. We split the forum into "casual" and "competitive" areas. Casual comments go into the casual area, and more competitive comments (my future states deck for example) go into the competitive area. The casual area has degraded into the "theme deck" area, while the competitive area has become the "non-theme deck area". I am off the website, and now they are trying to revamp the system without losing the concept. Letting people moderate their own threads by area would be a BAD idea as shown by this specific example.

I am a firm believer that we need a team to rate posters. Perhaps we should get the top contributors to rate other members. Take Joe Pikachu who has written 3 articles in the past and is incredibly helpful. He knows what a good post is. Perhaps we should offer him the chance to rate somebody on a scale and give rewards to the posters for being a good poster. This is a lot like the Guru system, but it would mean something. Have a few top posters (10 ish) who get a happy face by their name in exchange for a direct way to make the forum better. They rate the poster 1-10 ish on every post they read (not putting too much thought... just a good question/answer type of thing based on effectiveness of post. As the points start accumulating, clear trends in a poster's stats will come up. Have their "average helpfulness" number come up by their name, and everybody will know who to trust and who not to pretty quickly. This system can be easily worked through, and cannot be abused in any conceivable way (that I can see). Good posters will have a few bad posts... but that should not detract too much (think school work... that one bad test did not bring you down from an A to a C). Just my opinion Like what you have with the iTrader thing except done by the same people every time.

 

[toxictaipan]

Limiting the access of new accounts wouldn't be very smart. The 'Gym has much more to offer than just strategic advice. If this were implemented, new players, judges, and PTOs that just signed up won't have the ability to get rulings from the rules team. They also will not be able to advertise their events, trade, etc. Not good.

I'm not sure about separating the forums for beginners/casual players and competitive players, either. Most of the competitive players will only visit the competitive side and the casual players will be left passing around casual advice amongst themselves. That's pretty much what we have now. I just don't think creating new subforums will magically make people start contributing better advice.

 

[EeveeLover]

Limiting the access of new accounts isn't very smart. The 'Gym has much more to offer than just strategic advice. If this were implemented, new players, judges, and PTOs won't have the ability to get rulings from the rules team. They also will not be able to advertise their events, trade, etc. Not good.

If there was a 'New Member' area, why would we limit their ability to see everything else.

Heck, non members can see everything, why would we change that for someone that just signed up?

Also, for the Judges and PTO's, I am not away of any PTO that is not on this site already and most - probably 95% - of Judges are on here as well.

Again, no one would lose access to anything if it was done.

Just to check yourself, log out of your account and look at everything that you can still see....

 

[toxictaipan]

If there was a 'New Member' area, why would we limit their ability to see everything else.

Heck, non members can see everything, why would we change that for someone that just signed up?

Also, for the Judges and PTO's, I am not away of any PTO that is not on this site already and most - probably 95% - of Judges are on here as well.

Again, no one would lose access to anything if it was done.

Just to check yourself, log out of your account and look at everything that you can still see....

I think you're confused... I was referring to Rainbowgym's idea of limiting posting permissions, not viewing permissions.

Something what came up while reading all of this.

Why not limit new users in posting.
New users, no matter of which age are most time not experienced at all.
They sign up and start posting, while I think they should read more to get the idea about this game.

Why not giving new users only permission to post in a kind of "I am new can you help me" part and after 2 months expand permission.

It has nothing to do with being a good/bad players, but more with "forcing" people to read/learn.
For example if I see how many questions are asked in Ask the rules team, I always get a feeling most of them are new users, not knowing (and not having the patience) to learn how to find answers.
They take the short cut, direct posting, while many times answers can be found by learning how this site works and read.
If they are 'forced' to lurk around for period of time I think they will use available resources, because they have to.

Perhaps I am wrong about this, it's just an idea I got.

I highly encourage a little lurking before posting, but limiting posting permissions isn't the solution, in my opinion.

 

[Rogue Archetype]

I highly encourage a little lurking before posting, but limiting posting permissions isn't the solution, in my opinion.

Have you ever been on a site that requires X amount of posts before you can create threads in other parts of the site? I have. It, actually, works. You can read and go anywhere on the site, but you can only post in the new member section until you reach X amount of posts.

I think such an idea would help brand new players get familiar with what's already been said before they rehash old conversations.

As far as "good" players that lurk and "will just leave." That's a moot argument. If they HAVEN'T been registered/posting since they've found the site, why should we even consider them at all ? Won't they just continuelurking and not posting regardless of what's done?

 

[toxictaipan]

Have you ever been on a site that requires X amount of posts before you can create threads in other parts of the site? I have. It, actually, works. You can read and go anywhere on the site, but you can only post in the new member section until you reach X amount of posts.

I think such an idea would help brand new players get familiar with what's already been said before they rehash old conversations.

As far as "good" players that lurk and "will just leave." That's a moot argument. If they HAVEN'T been registered/posting since they've found the site, why should we even consider them at all ? Won't they just continuelurking and not posting regardless of what's done?

As far as I can tell, PokeGym's position on requiring X amount of posts for anything has always been that it just causes spam. Also, I never said anything about good players lurking and leaving.

EDIT: I was saying that if PokeGym separates the forums for beginners/casual players, that experienced players won't go into that part of the forum. A lot of people say they avoid the Deck Help and Strategy forum, so I don't see how this will be different.

 

[Rogue Archetype]

As far as I can tell, PokeGym's position on requiring X amount of posts for anything has always been that it just causes spam. Also, I never said anything about good players lurking and leaving.

EDIT: I was saying that if PokeGym separates the forums for beginners/casual players, that experienced players won't go into that part of the forum. A lot of people say they avoid the Deck Help and Strategy forum, so I don't see how this will be different.

Oh Snap! You thought all of that was responding directly to you :frown:

Nah man, the second part was responding to the conglomerate of posts that argued against having some sort of ORIENTATION restrictions.

I wasn't directly aimed at you there.

Nevertheless, I certainly am glad you're in here and keeping things on track!

 

[Melee Mewtwo]

Back to the adult/mature section.

Is convincing someone that your advice is correct really worth acting like a jerk and flamming people? How will that solve the problem of so many new people being afraid to join because of how harshly they will be reminded that they are new? (I could have sworn someone had mentioned that issue somewhere... I think it was R_A, can you confirm or am I going mad again?)

 

[Kayle]

Back to the adult/mature section.

Is convincing someone that your advice is correct really worth acting like a jerk and flamming people? How will that solve the problem of so many new people being afraid to join because of how harshly they will be reminded that they are new? (I could have sworn someone had mentioned that issue somewhere... I think it was R_A, can you confirm or am I going mad again?)

That depends on the site's own attitude and vision.

I've said multiple times that the solution to the "problem" here is mutually exclusive. Either the site stays friendly to new players - and retrains its poor reputation, or it "fixes" its reputation by losing the guards and being more open to the advanced and less 'mature' players.

 

[Melee Mewtwo]

How will happen to all of the newbies improve when they all get flammed off the site? You would have to be really patient to put up with experienced players always attacking your ideas.

 

[xcfrisco]

How will happen to all of the newbies improve when they all get flammed off the site?

Lurk more. I lurked on this site for 3 months before I even made a post. For REALLY elitest sites I lurk for at least a year, sometimes longer. Lurking makes you a better person imo

 

[raw19]

I would think that lurking makes one stalkerish. JK. I lurk to, but not for nearly that long a time. I prefer posting and using the responses I receive as a basis for how I should post in the future.

~ Lurkers Investigation ~

IMO people don't like getting flamed anymore then they do getting ignored. I could easily seeing J/S leaving this site in droves if people started biting their heads off even more when they post the slightest thing, were the masters turned loose so to speak.

JMO for now, and I hope I can continue to help even slightly with this.

 

[Kayle]

How will happen to all of the newbies improve when they all get flammed off the site? You would have to be really patient to put up with experienced players always attacking your ideas.

Lurk more. I lurked

I lurk to,

I lurked.

This is how "normal" forums work. You lurk because you are interested but too scared to post, and eventually think you have it figured out. By then enough is invested in the forum that you are not about to leave from the initial flamings.

 

[Rogue Archetype]

How did the primary/sole focus become "new person posts and gets flamed by others"

Some of the REGULARS are posting garbage. Alot of threads that create problems don't even have a newbie in it :/

We may have to make a rule that you include a specific header within your title... such as..

COMBO - Luxray and Mighteyena

or...

RULING - Expert Belt concerns

or ...

STRATEGY - How to tech against Machamp meta for SP users

Sometimes the initial post lends itself for extreme topic diffusion syndrome. :/

Perhaps one focus for 2011 is to encourage BETTER THREADS!

It seems like some people just want to START A THREAD and toss up garbage topics that contribute very little to much of anything.

This should be a BEAST forum man!

It's Card Strategy and Rulings!!!

This should be THE FIRST place the great players visit when they come onto the site.

This is supposed to be everyone's secret weapon that gives them a comprehensional understanding of beating any meta across the world!

We have members posting here from Germany, England, U.S., Malaysia, Indonesia, Mexico, Austrailia, and the Netherlands. These are just the ones that I know about!!!

How is this not the sickest, most invaluable Pokemon player resource known to mankind?

Some of the best players in the world come through here (whether they post or not, they check it out periodically). We just need to make this place a RESOURCE for interesting ideas and relevant discussion.

Again, I appreciate people taking an interest in this thread and offering up your thoughts.

You would not believe HOW MANY EYES are watching this thread and how MANY CONVERSATIONS are going on as a result of your feedback to this thread. Your voices are being heard and they're falling upon some very concerned and responsive ears.

Something good WILL come out of all of this.

 

[Kayle]

How did the primary/sole focus become "new person posts and gets flamed by others"

Because it sits at the heart of an issue that aggravates many regular or advanced members - not to generalize, but many that I have heard about or understand.

Some of the REGULARS are posting garbage. Alot of threads that create problems don't even have a newbie in it :/

What defines a "newbie", to you? I don't care how new or old the member is. If their advice is total garbage, I'm going to call them out on it and make sure people know that their advice is total garbage (and why).

How is this not the sickest, most invaluable Pokemon player resource known to mankind?

It's a great resource for quick rulings, for tournament listings, for a collection of tournament reports to give you an idea what the metagame is like. It's not a great place for new players or even just not-so-good players to get an idea why they aren't so good, to learn what they can do to improve, and to hold meaningful discussion with superior players.

It's an awesome resource but it's just not the end-all.

Some of the best players in the world come through here (whether they post or not, they check it out periodically). We just need to make this place a RESOURCE for interesting ideas and relevant discussion.

Then you need to have the people that can offer that consistently, and you need a system by which their voices will be the most prominent. Those who are too stubborn to listen need to be taught to go back and lurk until they mature; otherwise the messages are confused and no one learns unless they were already good enough to know how to read between the lines.

Really it's already always happening in front of you, I'm just suggesting you streamline the process.

I totally understand and agree if you are never going to open up to this idea in favor of staying a 'friendly' community, that's a great goal too. But I'm pretty sure that totally squelching the "flaming" the "inside jokes", and the "spam", even if we prefer to be in a perfect world where ALL the advanced players have the maturity and eloquence to put forth their ideas without being aggressive and off-track about it, will prove to oppose the best level of competitive discussion.

EDIT: R_A, the LAST thing you want to do is add new rules. Features are a good thing, they widen the scope of appeal and therefore widen the member base. Rules are a bad thing, they narrow the things you can do and therefore narrow the member base.

 

[Melee Mewtwo]

IMO people don't like getting flamed anymore then they do getting ignored. I could easily seeing J/S leaving this site in droves if people started biting their heads off even more when they post the slightest thing, were the masters turned loose so to speak.
.

Which isn't a good thing since they are Pokemon's targeted consumers.


(back to Kayle) Yes, lurking would work. However, that is the wiser, less impulsive decision, which are characteristics most newbies lack. Otherwise, we wouldn't be hear discussing the issue. Furthermore, lurking would help with assimilating into any forum. Which is why setting posting restrictions on newbies is a good idea. That way we can have our cake and eat it too.


Outside of all that, perhaps we should make it required in deck help threads, to explain the advice you give. It would help in showing who knows best and it would help the thread starter understand how to build decks. Maybe for the common corrections, like adding Uxies, there could be an article written on them that could be linked to in the advice.

Edit:

EDIT: R_A, the LAST thing you want to do is add new rules. Features are a good thing, they widen the scope of appeal and therefore widen the member base. Rules are a bad thing, they narrow the things you can do and therefore narrow the member base.

That would depend on what is being narrowed/widened. Narrowing the helpful posts is bad, but narrowing the garbage ones is good.

 

[Kayle]

Which isn't a good thing since they are Pokemon's targeted consumers.

Pokemon's, yes. Ours?

(back to Kayle) Yes, lurking would work. However, that is the wiser, less impulsive decision, which are characteristics most newbies lack. Otherwise, we wouldn't be hear discussing the issue. Furthermore, lurking would help with assimilating into any forum. Which is why setting posting restrictions on newbies is a good idea. That way we can have our cake and eat it too.

It is the wiser and less impulsive decision, but here's the thing - when you join immediately and are attacked for being stupid, what THEN is your impulse? Do you sit back and watch for a while? Do you leave? Or do you keep going, to continue being attacked? When you pick one of the former two choices, everyone wins - including you. When you pick the lattermost choice, you are offered one of the other two choices after a bit more sting (for you).

E: Setting a posting restriction does seem like a relatively good way to go to me, to be honest. GameFAQs' forum structure is brilliant in that it only allows a certain number of posts per day, depending on your "karma", which is not entirely correlated with age. Karma is readily visible in the user's profile, so you can tell whose advice is worth listening to, and only people with great karma can post with any really great frequency - but anyone can post just enough to keep their own interest, and thus, keep them lurking.

Outside of all that, perhaps we should make it required in deck help threads, to explain the advice you give. It would help in showing who knows best and it would help the thread starter understand how to build decks. Maybe for the common corrections, like adding Uxies, there could be an article written on them that could be linked to in the advice.

Oh goody, more rules, ones that prevent people from suggesting obvious changes for fear of "You didn't post your strategy, locked". WAIT, I MEAN - "You didn't explain your reasoning, warned."

Have you ever seen a troll thread before? Some of the masterful trolls can easily "explain" away actually logical, correct criticism. So much of Pokemon comes down to true testing and familiarity that this doesn't work even though it does already happen.

I like the idea of an article that explains standard archetypical cards to play, but we already have that in this forum, basically.

 

[Melee Mewtwo]

Pokemon's, yes. Ours?

Based off of what is said in the rules, yes it is our goal. Whether or not we decide to change that, it is our first priority to try to find a solution that does not interfere with the original goal.

It is the wiser and less impulsive decision, but here's the thing - when you join immediately and are attacked for being stupid, what THEN is your impulse? Do you sit back and watch for a while? Do you leave? Or do you keep going, to continue being attacked? When you pick one of the former two choices, everyone wins - including you. When you pick the lattermost choice, you are offered one of the other two choices after a bit more sting (for you).

The second option is certainly not ideal. Although it may reduce the amount of garbage it also reduces participation, which is something that we do not want to discourage. Idealy, we should avoid presenting such and option, which leads into the next bit.

E: Settint a posting restriction does seem like a relatively good way to go to me, to be honest. GameFAQs' forum structure is brilliant in that it only allows a certain number of posts per day, depending on your "karma", which is not entirely correlated with age. Karma is readily visible in the user's profile, so you can tell whose advice is worth listening to, and only people with great karma can post with any really great frequency - but anyone can post just enough to keep their own interest, and thus, keep them lurking.

This would help encourage the ideal option (the first one) without interefering with the original goal. I strongly support this, or at least some other form of restriction.

Oh goody, more rules, ones that prevent people from suggesting obvious changes for fear of "You didn't post your strategy, locked". WAIT, I MEAN - "You didn't explain your reasoning, warned."

Have you ever seen a troll thread before? Some of the masterful trolls can easily "explain" away actually logical, correct criticism. So much of Pokemon comes down to true testing and familiarity that this doesn't work even though it does already happen.

Which brings us back to "the mods are to harsh" problem. As R_A said the friendly reminders are friendly reminders not infractions. Though, I do see how this could get out of hand. Establishing a Guru Points system would be the ideal alternative since it would encourage good posts instead of discouraging bad ones.

I like the idea of an article that explains standard archetypical cards to play, but we already have that in this forum, basically.

We should make official ones, then sticky them.