Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

When did pokemon die?

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Team_Rocket_Prodigy

Team_Rocket_Prodigy

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This game has been going downhill for a long while now, when did it peak though? When was it the most skill based? In the format now bad players with a little luck can consistently beat fantastic players, I don't think I've ever seen more heartache in any other game. So when did the need for talent and skill start to diminish?
 
Most people will agree that it peaked some time after the EX:RS expansion and before DP. I think the most generally accepted format was DX-DP, but some say HL-HP. It started going downhill mostly with the release of DP, but LA was especially responsible. Before DP, T1KO's were virtually unheard of outside of some freak luck... but then Infernape was able to T1KO with a DRE or flipping a few heads. PlusPowers were also reintroduced, and we saw a bunch of cards doing high amounts of damage for (at the time) a pretty cheap cost. HP also went way up.

I think the most pinpointed start of the downwards spiral was around LA. Kingdra put an absurd amount of damage on the field for a single energy, and T1KO's started to become common. We also got Uxie, which introduced a new level of drawpower and the earliest form of turb-donk decks. Some would say SW created a stale format with the release of Gardy/Gallade, which is true, so that contributed to a bit of the game's current state. But basically, ever since LA's release of Kingdra we've seen cards come out to compete with it (and they've been mostly successful). SF's release of Machamp and Sableye combined with PL's release of Crobat and Poketurns created a format with decks full of donk factors. At the point, it was pretty common to donk (or be donked) at least once a tournament, whereas back when DP was first released it was unheard of.

I think the need for skill is still there, its just diluted. It doesn't seem to come to a head until T8/T4, depending on the tournament. Getting to top cut used to be a challenge, but the increase of T1 wins let more people in. Winning 2/3 games demands much more skill than a swiss match does. Also, aside from Crobat/Poketurn, I think SP decks demand a lot of technical skill. I liked the idea, but I think the way they were introduced to the format was poorly executed (especially the inclusion of Crobats).

Besides that, I think skill is being painfully reintroduced. It's nice to see, but we all know that with so many amazing sets that we gotta get some pretty bad ones. They're alright, just not as playable. When we get HG:SS-on (whenever that is), these sets will probably look much better. Even cards that seem too good right now (like LostGar) probably won't function as well in HG:SS-on, and we'll see a shift to other kinds of cards. Hearing of many of the decks that are popular in Japan right now, the format sounds really fun. Most importantly, it sounds healthy.
 
While I do feel that the format is more luck-based than skill-based....

Getting to top cut used to be a challenge, but the increase of T1 wins let more people in.
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No it doesn't, the number of T1 wins has nothing to do with the size of top cut.

It just means that players get in that otherwise wouldn't have been able to, and that lets them face more experienced players for a spell.
 
My bad, I didn't mean it like that... I meant it let in less experienced players more often, and that it was easier for "anyone" to get in. But yeah, attendance determines the size of top cut ><

I don't want to make this a luck+donk topic, but I made a topic a while back on how I hoped we would one day see the luck factor minimized. Most people were convinced that luck should always be part of the game. I agree, it should always be there, it's a common element in RPGs/card games. It makes almost every single game you play different. I've come to the conclusion that the more options you give a player, however, the less luck based a game becomes. You have more "outs" to a situation, and if you don't draw into your out, you can spend resources to search for it. I think that's what SP did, and it did a pretty good job. Flips will always be there, but we always have the option of not running flippy cards, too.

But then we get cards like Machamp that let you "counter" SP (I believe it was printed to anticipate SP's arrival), but it made for a mindless deck in itself. I couldn't believe how many Machamps were top cutting for the longest time (they never won, but you can prolly guess how they made cuts). That's what I meant when SP was poorly executed. So we have this format with skill based, technical decks, and then this deck that can plow over them with inexperienced players... but lose to anything else without a stroke of good luck. So it's hard to say exactly "what" this format is lol
 
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Different people getting into top cuts isn't a bad thing.

Skilled players that get donked out of tops are going to get mad, but it's a game and they need to accept the fact that it happens. But for those 'less skilled' players that make it in, they feel a heck of a lot better about themselves.

For example, at the first city championship I went to i played Aaron curry(worlds competitor, florida demi-pokegod) first round. I thought I was fudged the whole game but I wound up winning. It made me feel like I was actually good at the game and made me strive to get better.
 
Team_Rocket_Prodigy said:
This game has been going downhill for a long while now, when did it peak though? When was it the most skill based? In the format now bad players with a little luck can consistently beat fantastic players, I don't think I've ever seen more heartache in any other game. So when did the need for talent and skill start to diminish?
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Peak? Probably 2000-2001. Tournament wise, U.S. Nationals is coming very close to the size of the biggest tournaments in Pokemon history (still not the largest though and they really need to stop saying that at U.S. Nationals because the STS's had over 2000 players).

Most skill based? Probably 2005-2006. 2007 before Diamond and Pearl was released was great also. 2008 also very solid. Anything before the last two years have been great. The release of things like Broken Time Space, Machamp, Sableye, Ambipom G, etc. have caused a lot of T1 crap that we nearly didn't have before.
 
patthemanvan said:
Different people getting into top cuts isn't a bad thing.

Skilled players that get donked out of tops are going to get mad, but it's a game and they need to accept the fact that it happens. But for those 'less skilled' players that make it in, they feel a heck of a lot better about themselves.

For example, at the first city championship I went to i played Aaron curry(worlds competitor, florida demi-pokegod) first round. I thought I was fudged the whole game but I wound up winning. It made me feel like I was actually good at the game and made me strive to get better.
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I agree, stuff like that needs to happen. It's in the nature of the game, any card game really. But it must be kept in check. On a large scale of things, these scenarios don't have big, negative impact on the game. Pissy people? Maybe. But you still see the same people winning, because luck factors fizzle out. They do have a positive impact on the player with lesser experience, perhaps an inspiring one. It should never get to the point, however, when every player (skilled or not) feels like they have no control of a game. We've come dangerously close to that with Uxie-donk decks, but thankfully we have cards in the format and rulings that stopped it from being disastrous. You can't deny that this format is the most responsible for decks like these (among other "donkey" decks), and it doesn't teach a lesser experienced player anything, anyways.

So my point remains, it is becoming less of a challenge to reach top cut. In a format that demands less skill, we can see how it directly effects who makes cut (I can in my area, at least). From anyone playing at competitive tournaments, I don't see how that's a good thing. You'll never be able to take away the "anyone can win sometimes" nature of the game, so I don't see why we're sacrificing so much skill. But I feel like this is for another topic.
 
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Less Skilled players could alternately strive to improve to try and beat those "demi-gods". Just sayin'.
 
Or they could build decks that are autopilot and win a ton of games by themselves just because your opponent doesne get to play. Bright look rush spray gg, anyone can do that and no way can anyone beat it with a bad opening hand. Were playing openinghandmon right now..

@topic
la/sf/pt
 
I really believe that these donk players are no different than players who have copied decks like Blaziken decks of a few years ago. They are easy to play and make average and below-average players competitive.
 
Pokemon die? I thought they just get knocked out.

Oh, you mean the Franchise.

Pokemon hasn't died. Your getting older. You realize Black and White are the most pre-ordered game in gaming history, right?

Whereas anything that must go up, must come down, I think Pokemon has a ways to go before it can descend.
 
The Gorn said:
I really believe that these donk players are no different than players who have copied decks like Blaziken decks of a few years ago. They are easy to play and make average and below-average players competitive.
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Besides the fact that Blaziken or any deck in the past, even Metanite, was more skillful than what we have today, a good player was at least able to defend against that. It's pretty difficult to even get into the game if you have a bad opening hand and facing Luxchomp or some donk deck.
 
It's not great now, but I think that we're heading back towards a slower and more skill based format. A lot of our more recent sets have been underpowered compared to what we're used to, and the new Black and White rules confirm this as well. Even a RR-on rotation at the end of this season will solve most of the problems at the moment.
 
Porygon-X said:
Pokemon die? I thought they just get knocked out.

Oh, you mean the Franchise.

Pokemon hasn't died. Your getting older. You realize Black and White are the most pre-ordered game in gaming history, right?

Whereas anything that must go up, must come down, I think Pokemon has a ways to go before it can descend.
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Thanks for completly ignoring what this topic is about?!
 
The game still requires skill, or are you trying to say that the same people get lucky over and over again. sure, there's some luck- Donks are never fun. (They still aren't that common anyways) But as we move up to a format with an errata'd Rare Candy and large HP basics, donks will become practically non-existent.
 
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