Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

When did pokemon die?

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Like eriknance, I've taken up Magic recently because I've become increasingly frustrated by the current state Pokemon is in. I just feel that Magic is so much more diverse in its meta, inventive in its gameplay and more skill-based.

In Pokemon at the moment, the following decks are going to win the majority of the tournaments:

- LuxChomp
- DialgaChomp
- Gyarados
- VileGar

In Magic, you can expect these decks to be winning the majority of the tournaments:

- Caw-Go
- UW Control
- Valakut
- Kutholda Red
- Boros
- UB Control
- Vampires
- Tezz Variants

Pretty much every mechanic and deck in the game seems balanced and the decks are actually challenging to play well. And the cards and some of the mechanics in the game are way more interesting and varied than Pokemon (eriknance listed a view).

The game also seems a lot less luck based, mainly because of the Paris Mulligan system (you have the option to mulligan any hand and draw a fresh one of one less card). What do people think of this system being introduced to Pokemon?
 
The game has in no way gone downhill. It hit rock bottom early in the EX era, IIRC, and has gone nowhere but up.

The game isn't stale. The meta is as open as ever... there are numerous viable decks, from SPs to VileGar to Machamp. The price of Base Set Charizard has gone down for a long time, but the prices of certain other collectible cards, such as *s, has gone up. Prices of meta cards, such as Broken Time-Space, Gengar Prime, and Pokémon Collector, are very high. More people are playing than ever.

As for your assertion that "nobodies" are winning tournaments, I think even that deserves to be contested. Chuck, Jay, Jason, and a few others are still performing consistently well. Chuck won at least three Cities this year with DialgaChomp. I see the best players still winning... they are not complaining about losing to bad players with donk decks, and that's because it doesn't happen. I think all your points about the game going downhill are incorrect, and registration statistics on the 'Gym, trade activity, prices on eBay, and attendance at events say you're incorrect as well.

If you're all bemoaning the fact that the game sucks now, quit. Go play YGO. With a larger and stronger player base than ever, Pokémon won't miss you.
 
Because "if you dont like it leave" is an awesome argument. Sure SOME good player will win but no matter what you do, during the next tournament you might get rolled, not because youre bad but because your openign hand doesnt have what you need.

Ive won 4/5 tournaments this year and I still think the game is awful, I didnt win because I tested, not because I played smart and made clever choices. I won because I had the better hands and my opponent didnt get to play.

And I really think YGO is the BEST argument that a game gets more popular easily just because its awful and nothign but opening hands and luck. Most YGO players I know cant count til three and still think theyre smart ebcause they do good at ygo events. Less skill = easy sucess = popular.
 
If you've won 4/5 tournaments because your hands have been better, I'd say that goes beyond simple luck. It means that your deck is built more consistently than most of the decks out there... and deckbuilding is half the battle, as it always has been.
 
My first cities, I played dos for the first time ever, my opponent roudn 1 has a crap opening, I misplay like crazy and still win. His deck wouldve been an autoloss. Then I get beginners round 2/3, barely win against luxchomp and something I dont remember. my autoloss gets fifth and is out, Instead I have to play against machamp in t4. And in t2 I play one amazign game with lots and ltos of thinking and calculating and loose on a fainting spell flip (so skilled), only to win the next 2 games because his hands are unplayable.

Next cities I play luxchomp fir the first tournament ever, I play 2 "beginners", donk one of them, get one dead hand, win an sp mirror because my opening hand is call cyrus dce twins stuff T4 I have a godhand, he has an awful hand, Round 2 its the other way around. And roudn 3 we both have crap but I get the better topdecks. In the finals I misplay awfully and win by timeout.

etc etc yada yada

fainting spell flips, opening hands, pairings, these are the things that determine winner and looser.

If you sit down against an opponent, what do you thing? "I wonder who this guy is / what hes playing / if I can outplay him" or "I hope I get a good opening hand". Think about this honestly. I definitly know the answer.
 
Paris Mulligans are almost a requirement for Pokemon to be considered a competitive game. As much as it has a "big show" tournament style, it really isn't considered competitive by most gaming/gamedev communities. The startup rules are a big part of why not, and that's something I'd really like to see fixed.

Yeah, Pokemon really has been fairly non-interactive since day 1, but with fewer disruption cards being printed outside of hard locks, there's less than there used to be.
 
Cyrus said:
Both the peak and the well's bottom for this game are associated with the variety in methods to achieve victory. The whole 2004-2007 period as a whole was great because you had HUGE variety in viable ways to win.

*Hand disruption (anything running Admin)
*Conditional Energy/Retreat disruption (Pow/Team Aqua's Hideout)
*A million and one general lock-down strategies (Muk, Cham, Cessation Crystal)
*Come-from-behind decks (anything aggressively utilizing Scramble Energy not called Gardevoir/Gallade)

...And so much more. However, while one can make the claim that the downturn occurred around DP, I am confident that the game's cancer kicked in with the releases of Mysterious Treasures and Secret Wonders. This led to the diversity of strategy devolving into three decks:

Deck A) smash people in over the face (Blissey)

Deck B) smash people in over the face, or two-hit everything while constantly locking them out of an un-counterable Power denial (Garde/Gallade)

Deck C) smash people in over the face, or two-hit everything while constantly spreading tiny pockets of damage (Magmorter/Typhlosion)

Empoleon made things better, but by and large, the format didn't ever exit this stage. Although variety of decks has waxed and waned since then, the complete and utter lack of methods of is still very present. Although I appreciate the effort to remedy this with "Lost World," PCL's attempt with this was shaky at best.


Come on, PCL...Where's the creativity?

Where's the card that says, "poison your opponent's benched pokemon"?

Where's the card that says, "if you have 35 or more cards in your discard pile, you win the game"?

Where's the card that says, "search your binder for a card and put that card into your hand in exchange for your opponent drawing three prize cards"?

Heck, where's the card that says, "sing a song for your entire turn. When you are done singing, do 30 damage to the defending pokemon"? (Oh wait, that card actually existed at one point...Too bad we never saw it in the States!)

Don't take these examples too seriously...They're just there to show you some of the possibilities that PCL _could_ take this game in. While I won't profess any particular direction, I do feel that the game is, relatively, stale, and that they desperately need to stir things up in order to save it.
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On your different ways to win i say to you: Lost gar, (who fails, but it is a new way to win) and Seeker/Porygon-2/Dialga Lv.X deck
 
I feel like slowly, Pokemon has been power creeping up from era to era. (Base to Neo, Neo to E, E to EX, and so forth) However, throughout DPP, this power creeping wasn't regulated properly. Things were given power without a balance to them. They should have formulas that are designed to be a check and balance system for creating cards. If a card is potentially too powerful, give it a cost. Gengar SF was the pokemon that made me realize that the power creep has ruined this game.

Bright look turn two isnt really the problem, it's the one energy for 60 that comes right after that. Shadow room and Poltergeist isn't really bothersome to me, it's that I have to attack with uxie or risk dying on my own turn. Or Garchomp snipes that hit 80 for 1 DCE that make me wonder.

EX era throughout the Holon era was good because things needed set up to finally do damage or fulfill its purpose. That meant nearly zero donks. Blaziken with Rayquaza ex, BLS, Metanite (my favorite), MSN, Dragtrode, there are others that I'm forgetting. Hell, even turn 2 decks needed TWO turns to kill. Zapturndos, Medicham EX, Hariyama EX, Flariados, Scizor EX, Dark Steelix, etc etc...

Out of control power creep has prevented combos to work like they're suppose to, and until this gets rectified, then we'll have to deal with (too) constant donks and hand openings determining most of the game.

P.S.: I welcome the addition of alternate win conditions, but also with a reasonable counter to them. Yugioh has burn decks, but also has anti burn cards and healing cards. If we're to have Lost world cards and Lost World in general as a win condition, then we should have anti-lost world cards as well. But we don't, so the mechanic is a bit unbalanced at the moment.
 
I completely hear you guys about opening hands and such. It is just sooo painful that you prepped for a tournament only to end up with bad hands and thus wasting your time playtesting and also your time getting to the place itself. It's like there is ALWAYS a chance to have a bad hand. Sure you can make a consistent list and stuff but the chance is still out there...you'll eventually get it :(
 
I have to concur about Pokemon being stale compared to Magic. I mean WoTC still makes some broken cards that can be thrown into a deck and dominate, but the variations of decks and ways to win are astounding. Pokemon decks are very cookie-cutter in comparison. (not saying magic doesn't have it's fair share of copy-paste from internet decks, but still)

But anyways I thought Pokemon 'died' around R/s/e games when people lost interest after the craze.
 
fuzzywuzzy229 said:
I completely hear you guys about opening hands and such. It is just sooo painful that you prepped for a tournament only to end up with bad hands and thus wasting your time playtesting and also your time getting to the place itself. It's like there is ALWAYS a chance to have a bad hand. Sure you can make a consistent list and stuff but the chance is still out there...you'll eventually get it :(
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What I really hate is when you have a good hand but then its ruined because you go first instead of second.
 
hey its kenz said:
On your different ways to win i say to you: Lost gar, (who fails, but it is a new way to win) and Seeker/Porygon-2/Dialga Lv.X deck
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Re you: Already addressed Lostgar; and Seeker/Porygon-2 is an unlimited deck.

Re everyone else: while it hasn't been implied or said, still please keep in mind that creativity =/= power inflation/power creep. Magic: the Gathering actually went through a phase of greater creativity coupled with power deflation, so it's possible.

Even something relatively simple in Magic, such as Chain Lightning, is the extent of the creativity in Pokemon we've seen as of late. Erik made a great point by referencing just how utterly HORRIBLE Heart Gold/Soul Silver was, but I can forgive that because it was a "base set" of sorts.

Still, they haven't done much better than that. Please PCL...If you ever read this, please try to push the envelope.
 
I'm sorry, but I think this thread is ridiculous. You're discussing the death of Pokemon on a website with active, booming forums full of people interested in the game. Even those who are declaring it dead, broken and unfair are doing so while simultaneously playtesting, attending tournaments, contributing to forums, and investing time and money into this game!!

Fair question: if this game is so bad, if it has really deteriorated as much as you all say, then why are you here? Why are you devoting your valuable time to a game that, in your opinion, is devoid of value and gameplay integrity? Imagine this scenario: I eat at a restaurant every night. The food used to be better, now it doesn't taste as good. There are other restaurants in town, yet I continue to attend the same one anyway and eat the sub-par food. While there, I sit with others who are in the same situation as myself, and we divide our time between continuing to eat the bad food and sitting around complaining about how bad it has become.

Sound ridiculous? That's because it is! And that's exactly what this thread is. Brief summary: if you don't like the game, if you don't agree with the rules, if you don't enjoy the game mechanics or the cards that are available... why do you continue to make yourself miserable? Why not play another TCG?
 
EvanBaker said:
Brief summary: if you don't like the game, if you don't agree with the rules, if you don't enjoy the game mechanics or the cards that are available... why do you continue to make yourself miserable? Why not play another TCG?
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Because I still enjoy playing the game, have become quite good at the game and have invested a lot of money in the game. I am now also playing Magic on the side, but I believe that if they make it GS-on next season with the new rule changes the game may pick up a little and become a better quality and more strategic game. But that's all speculation.
 
When WotC stopped having tournaments for 15+, it seemed like they were TRYING to kill the game to many. In an effort to make the licensing worth less potentially? Its not just an old situation, its a complex and largely irrelevant one.

waynegg said:
Well, except for Farfetch'd as seen here (flavor text) and here (Pokedex entry in the pink and green box)
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When it thinks of its dead mother, it cries. Its crying makes the skull it wears rattle hollowly. - Cubone's DP Entry
 
EvanBaker said:
I'm sorry, but I think this thread is ridiculous. You're discussing the death of Pokemon on a website with active, booming forums full of people interested in the game. Even those who are declaring it dead, broken and unfair are doing so while simultaneously playtesting, attending tournaments, contributing to forums, and investing time and money into this game!!

Fair question: if this game is so bad, if it has really deteriorated as much as you all say, then why are you here? Why are you devoting your valuable time to a game that, in your opinion, is devoid of value and gameplay integrity? Imagine this scenario: I eat at a restaurant every night. The food used to be better, now it doesn't taste as good. There are other restaurants in town, yet I continue to attend the same one anyway and eat the sub-par food. While there, I sit with others who are in the same situation as myself, and we divide our time between continuing to eat the bad food and sitting around complaining about how bad it has become.

Sound ridiculous? That's because it is! And that's exactly what this thread is. Brief summary: if you don't like the game, if you don't agree with the rules, if you don't enjoy the game mechanics or the cards that are available... why do you continue to make yourself miserable? Why not play another TCG?
Click to expand...

OP asked when this game peaked...I and others gave him an answer.

This answer is tied directly to why the game was "most" enjoyable then, and why it's "less" (key word less) enjoyable now. It obviously hasn't deteriorated nearly enough to make us quit, but it's gotten bad enough where it makes some of us at least consider it.

While I must admit that the "die" part of the thread title is a bit of an exaggeration, it's not the rich game it used to be.
 
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EvanBaker said:
Sound ridiculous? That's because it is! And that's exactly what this thread is. Brief summary: if you don't like the game, if you don't agree with the rules, if you don't enjoy the game mechanics or the cards that are available... why do you continue to make yourself miserable? Why not play another TCG?
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but that isn't entirely correct. Human nature is "ridiculous" in itself, and that's a huge factor why people continue to repeat their "mistakes".

In your example, why do you think they noticed how bad the food tastes? Because they eat their every night. They are used to eat there. Once they noticed that the food went bad, they're not just going to another restaurant, they first want to flame with others about how bad the food is. And they really want to make sure that leaving the restaurant behind is the only option available.. people aren't used to change their habits due to "mundane" matter.

Speaking of the real case, the Pokemon TCG... you learn all the rules and game mechanics. You want to beat other people, so you improve yourself and train. You are used playing this game. After some time (months to years) the game went bad ("bad" = things happend you don't like. If your reasoning supports common sense, you will be heard).

Now you have 3 options:

- Throw all that knowledge away. It's not like you spent time with that game anyway, right?
- Think/Flame/Discuss WHY things turned out the way it did. This might not actually change the way things are, but it helps to speak about problems (you might even find a solution), from a psychological way.
- Ignore the problems. They probably aren't real and everyone is just talking garbage.

In conclusion, you tell us the following:

"You are wrong, all of you. Why? Because I easily throw all my knowledge away. I change my habits every 3 seconds. I don't care if you spent X amount of time with it. It doesn't matter anyway. And you think actually TALKING about it will solve anything? You're just too naiv. There is no problem, even if 8 out of 10 people claim that there is one. Instead of thinking too much, just erase everything and start over."

I hope this brief explaination about "complaining" told you anything. If it didn't, too bad. All I said is basic human psychology. There's no point in telling yourself or me that it is a lie, because it (obviously) isn't.
 
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