Allowing 10% Foreign Cards once again

[immewnity]

Now, in a lot of countries and regions, it makes sense to only allow the official language. However, there is no official language in the United States of America. Therefore, the line has to be drawn somewhere. While there is technically no official language, all legal documents in the USA are written in English, so I feel that English makes sense to be the only language tournament-legal in the USA.

Imagine if everyone was able to use cards of their language, whether primary, secondary, tertiary, or any. We'd have people playing English, French, Polish, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Japanese, Korean, and German cards at tournaments. Now, this would involve numerous translators that know numerous languages, either to translate what the other person is saying (if they don't know the other player's language), or to verify what is said in order to lessen cheating. You could have a Hispanophone playing a Francophone, an Italophone playing a Lusophone, all at a small-scale Cities-type event. While this would not be an issue at Worlds, one can only imagine the havoc caused at small events.

Of course, there's always the issue that not all Americans speak English. I know a number of people that only speak Spanish, as well as a few that only speak Italian. There must be some way to accommodate them. While the 10% rule might help in this case, people that don't know any English would still not be able to comfortably play. So, I think we have a bigger issue at stake here; players are being turned away because of their language.

Really, there's no good solution to this issue, either. Off the top of my head, the only thing I can think about is language-specific tournaments, though this would definitely mess with rankings.

 

[Rambo1000]

the entire time i played from 05-08, japanese cards were fully allowed. i even used all japanese decks multiple times, along with many of my friends. i dont recall even once having an issue with the cards, and honestly i dont even think we had to provide translations.

 

[Mac Sting]

M:TG and YuGiOh! are also primarily played by adults. (and I don't think YuGiOh! allows foreign cards, either).

I know you can play foreign cards in YGO, but not Japanese. I played German Thunder-Kings at YCS.

 

[Raen]

I know you can play foreign cards in YGO, but not Japanese. I played German Thunder-Kings at YCS.

Ok, that makes sense. I knew you couldn't play Japanese cards since a lot of the art is HEAVILY censored outside of Japan (for good reason, too. YuGiOh is not a kids property at all there.), but I didn't know you could play languages outside of Japanese.

 

[Shen]

the entire time i played from 05-08, japanese cards were fully allowed. i even used all japanese decks multiple times, along with many of my friends. i dont recall even once having an issue with the cards, and honestly i dont even think we had to provide translations.

That's exactly why they were banned. People played decks entirely in Japanese and when a reference was needed, the player took out a freaking book and it was very untimely and unfair every time someone needed to see something. People playing all Japanese decks ruined foreign cards for everyone else.

Thinking twice about this, personally, I don't mind non-Japanese cards just because of the back difference. 10% seems fair and you don't need tons of references. I still think it would be nice if we didn't have to resort to foreign cards in the first place, though.

 

[Ninja]

Ah, I remember when I was missing one Kingdra LA and I had to use a Japanese one... Good times... Good times...

 

[GodBlessAmerica]

Foreign & domestic (American) MTG cards have the same backs.

And most MTG players use sleeves right? So what does this "they have different backs" argument have to do with anything?

I really don't think the 10% rule is unreasonable at all for judges. It's better for the game when cards are more affordable. And whoever is in charge of distribution (is it TPCi) is taking advantage of the fact that we can't use any foreign by making important cards like Mewtwo EX incredibly rare. I understand this is a business decision, but at some point people are going to get fed up with all of the restrictions pokemon has piled on top of it's lousy prize support

 

[Ken_the_Turtle]

And most MTG players use sleeves right? So what does this "they have different backs" argument have to do with anything?

Most plain colour sleeves are a bit transparent when they have a card in them, white ones especially.

 

[Diaz]

The "Pokemon needs to make money from us buying packs!" argument isn't good because of how often we hear that actual players aren't the target market. Instead, we are told that organized play is more like an advertisement of the brand and card game. Assuming that, wouldn't the powers that be want to make the game more accessible to more players? Allowing foreign cards makes cards easier to get, and thus more available to the players.

That said, I think the real issue is just convenience. It is easier for everyone if all the cards are in languages that everyone understands. I think that avoiding the hassle (opaque sleeves, translation, ect.) caused by having foreign cards is worth keeping this rules as is.

 

[Rambo1000]

That's exactly why they were banned. People played decks entirely in Japanese and when a reference was needed, the player took out a freaking book and it was very untimely and unfair every time someone needed to see something. People playing all Japanese decks ruined foreign cards for everyone else.

Thinking twice about this, personally, I don't mind non-Japanese cards just because of the back difference. 10% seems fair and you don't need tons of references. I still think it would be nice if we didn't have to resort to foreign cards in the first place, though.

I never even had to show anyone translations! The 10% thing sounds good though.

 

[Sevus]

Ok, that makes sense. I knew you couldn't play Japanese cards since a lot of the art is HEAVILY censored outside of Japan (for good reason, too. YuGiOh is not a kids property at all there.), but I didn't know you could play languages outside of Japanese.

The primary reason that Japanese cards are prohibited is because they'd be marked in TCG territories, different card back, different stock, different finish. It also allows YGO chase rares to be as expensive as they are over here. However, you can use foreign cards, as long as you have a reference in the language(s) permitted in your region.

Anyways, I don't really have an opinion either way. I'd lean towards fewer complexities added out-of-game though.

 

[Shen]

I never even had to show anyone translations! The 10% thing sounds good though.

I agree most competitive players won't need references, but for newer players it's very untimely... or if you play a deck that's rogue or under the radar. Even if you only have to show someone once, it's a lot easier to reference 1 card out of only 1 to 6 cards (10%) than out of 1 to 60 (full deck).

Your argument is valid, though. I mean, we get through Worlds every year. Granted, everyone should know most cards on the field there. I don't see 10% of a deck being too untimely even for the newest of players. I mean, most people don't even do the full 6 foreign cards cards, it's more like 1 or 2.

Like I said, though, marked cards by Japanese backs needs to be strictly watched. If you don't have solid, non-clear/translucent sleeves, you forfeit your right to play Japanese cards. If you split a sleeve and are unable to provide appropriate sleeves (or non-Japanese version of your Japanese card), you should be dropped.

The "Pokemon needs to make money from us buying packs!" argument isn't good because of how often we hear that actual players aren't the target market. Instead, we are told that organized play is more like an advertisement of the brand and card game. Assuming that, wouldn't the powers that be want to make the game more accessible to more players? Allowing foreign cards makes cards easier to get, and thus more available to the players.

That said, I think the real issue is just convenience. It is easier for everyone if all the cards are in languages that everyone understands. I think that avoiding the hassle (opaque sleeves, translation, ect.) caused by having foreign cards is worth keeping this rules as is.

I agree. Besides that, we have huge secondary markets for domestic cards, anyways. People buy tons of singles in their local languages.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

Yes, because bringing back the foreign card rule and giving judges more stuff to keep track so people can play with their 'pretty Japanese cards' is a great idea. -_- (Coming from someone who actively used Japanese cards back in the day and still gets a few of them because I like them BTW)

Reintroducing foreign cards isn't a great idea as it puts up more hoops that the tournament staff and players a like would have to contend with.

Your argument is valid, though. I mean, we get through Worlds every year. Granted, everyone should know most cards on the field there. I don't see 10% of a deck being too untimely even for the newest of players. I mean, most people don't even do the full 6 foreign cards cards, it's more like 1 or 2.

Just because competitive players (who have translators on stand-by BTW), are able to keep track of these things doesn't mean that new players should be forced to deal with it, because their opponent wants to play them.

Like I said, though, marked cards by Japanese backs needs to be strictly watched. If you don't have solid, non-clear/translucent sleeves, you forfeit your right to play Japanese cards. If you split a sleeve and are unable to provide appropriate sleeves (or non-Japanese version of your Japanese card), you should be dropped.

This is just...bad. It's just a bad idea. It's always been my ideal that once a player gets beyond deckchecks they shouldn't be dropped from the event unless they are guilty of a major offense (ie, cheating or inappropriate language) and saying a player should be dropped because of a sleeve breaking is a much harsher punishment than is necessary.

 

[Absoltrainer]

Question: It's related to the topic in an unrelated kind of way.

Why are Japanese cards the only ones with their respective backs and silver borders. English and every other language have the same background and yellow borders. Has there ever been a reason given for the change in design? Just curious.

 

[Tash]

Question: It's related to the topic in an unrelated kind of way.

Why are Japanese cards the only ones with their respective backs and silver borders. English and every other language have the same background and yellow borders. Has there ever been a reason given for the change in design? Just curious.

As for the backs:
The original Japanese cardbacks said "Pocket Monsters" on it, so it was completely redesigned for America. At one point, Japan completely revamped the game with the VS series, including a new cardback with the international Pokemon logo. The idea was for all regions to switch to the new card back so that it would be the same everywhere.

Unfortunately, they decided that the VS series was a huge mistake and swept it under the rug, so only Japan got the new card backs.

 

[Shen]

Just because competitive players (who have translators on stand-by BTW), are able to keep track of these things doesn't mean that new players should be forced to deal with it, because their opponent wants to play them.

Umm I said that in the very sentence you quoted that 10% isn't very many for new players to deal with, and that not many people even do the full 10%. New players may only encounter 1 or 2 cards that they have to reference. This is arguable, however. I can see it being an issue for newer players but I don't really think a whole lot.

The translation argument isn't even applicable... translators are necessary at Worlds because of the language barriers. Hopefully at a local tournament everyone can speak the same language >.> Not only that, but we're talking a full 60 card deck played by a foreign player versus 6 cards played by local player.

This is just...bad. It's just a bad idea. It's always been my ideal that once a player gets beyond deckchecks they shouldn't be dropped from the event unless they are guilty of a major offense (ie, cheating or inappropriate language) and saying a player should be dropped because of a sleeve breaking is a much harsher punishment than is necessary.

Well no one is forcing them to use foreign cards. If they really wish to use them, they take on that responsibility. They're responsible for having sleeves in order to play Japanese cards. If they're worried a sleeve might split they either shouldn't play Japanese cards or they should keep extra sleeves handy. I myself said earlier, though, that I dislike Japanese cards being played anyways.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

Umm I said that in the very sentence you quoted that 10% isn't very many for new players to deal with, and that not many people even do the full 10%. New players may only encounter 1 or 2 cards that they have to reference. This is arguable, however. I can see it being an issue for newer players but I don't really think a whole lot.

The translation argument isn't even applicable... translators are necessary at Worlds because of the language barriers. Hopefully at a local tournament everyone can speak the same language >.> Not only that, but we're talking a full 60 card deck played by a foreign player versus 6 cards played by local player.

You missed my point. I was saying that Worlds players using foreign cards isn't applicable due to the different resources available, and the experience of the players.

And of the players you encountered maybe they used only a few foreign cards, but I ran into players that used multiple different Japanese cards. It's just it can be horribly inconvenient and annoying especially for new players to need references.

Well no one is forcing them to use foreign cards. If they really wish to use them, they take on that responsibility. They're responsible for having sleeves in order to play Japanese cards. If they're worried a sleeve might split they either shouldn't play Japanese cards or they should keep extra sleeves handy. I myself said earlier, though, that I dislike Japanese cards being played anyways.

If the rules state they can use them then they shouldn't be dropped for such a minor offense that they may have had little control over. Remember we aren't talking about regular league play here. You don't see players being dropped from tournaments because they're cards warp during the tournament for such a reason, because these kinds of things would be out of their hands.

 

[Shen]

You missed my point. I was saying that Worlds players using foreign cards isn't applicable due to the different resources available, and the experience of the players.

I don't get how a reference wouldn't suffice. You're saying that we need dedicated, experienced translators handy in order for foreign cards to be used. If someone uses a proxy, a reference text is just fine. I don't see why a foreign card is any different.

It's not like the individual would need a book full of references like many did in the past when full, 60 card foreign decks were allowed. It's 6 references max. Again, that's totally different than at Worlds where full 60 carded decks are used. In the chance that someone needed a reference then, instead of having all players with a ~60 page book on hand, there's a translator. Totally different.

If the rules state they can use them then they shouldn't be dropped for such a minor offense that they may have had little control over. Remember we aren't talking about regular league play here. You don't see players being dropped from tournaments because they're cards warp during the tournament for such a reason, because these kinds of things would be out of their hands.

Alright then. What do propose should happen IF Japanese cards are allowed and IF a player splits a sleeve?

I also don't see how they have no control over it. All they gotta do is bring extra sleeves.

 

[Raen]

On the subject of references:

So, let's say I run 1 Japanese Magnezone Prime. Ok, so fine, I keep a reference out. No big deal, right?

Now my whole Magnezone line is Japanese. I need 3 references: one for Magnemite, one for Magneton, and one for Magnezone Prime. This is still barely acceptable, but it's workable.

Now let's say all the pokemon in my Magnezone/Eel deck are Japanese. Cleffa, Magnemite, Magneton, Magnezone, Tynamo, and Eelektrik. That's 6 reference cards. Now we are getting to the point of ridiculousness.

The point, ultimately, is that external references are a pain and clunky, particularly in larger numbers, AND they are very new player unfriendly, not to mention younger player unfriendly.

It's just easier for EVERYONE involved to ban foreign cards.

I still wish we could use Japanese basic energy, though.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

I don't get how a reference wouldn't suffice. You're saying that we need dedicated, experienced translators handy in order for foreign cards to be used. If someone uses a proxy, a reference text is just fine. I don't see why a foreign card is any different.

It's not like the individual would need a book full of references like many did in the past when full, 60 card foreign decks were allowed. It's 6 references max. Again, that's totally different than at Worlds where full 60 carded decks are used. In the chance that someone needed a reference then, instead of having all players with a ~60 page book on hand, there's a translator. Totally different.

Raen pretty much summarized my feelings. Can players deal with it? Sure, but it's just easier for all parties to just not let them be played.

Alright then. What do propose should happen IF Japanese cards are allowed and IF a player splits a sleeve?

I also don't see how they have no control over it. All they gotta do is bring extra sleeves.

Not all players carry extra sleeves, especially if they're using old pre-release sleeves. Do I have a good alternative? Not really, other than don't allow foreign cards and just avoid the whole mess.