Should Pokemon Catcher Be Made Into a League Promo?
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Otaku
Active Member
First, yes I edited out the list from your quote; me repeating it isn't necessary and my response will be long enough as is.
Second, I reject your premise.
TCGs have to compete with a variety of entertainment forms, and while the entire burden of the game's cost is reflected in the MSRP, that doesn't apply to the secondary market. Even if Pokemon isn't "expensive" by other TCG standards, doesn't mean it is "cheap".
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Aron Figaro
New Member
PCL made the decision of no exclusive ultra-rares anymore, with the EXes. The US went back on that. That may be related to Pokemon Catcher's rarity, as well - TPCi isn't sticking to the design guidelines exactly. They're not outright breaking them to the point where a higher-up is cracking skulls, but...the intent to kill the secondary market isn't there. They've crashed prices on a lot of things, which I LIKE because it makes the game more accessible, but they certainly haven't solved every problem.
Catcher as a league promo? The kids would love that and it would REALLY help competition, especially in Juniors where it becomes a case of money vs skill. Kids having to do odd jobs, save their allowances, and buy decks with their own money need all the help they can get. How many of you were one of those, so many years ago? I was, back when base set came out and I was 12...
Catcher as a league promo? The kids would love that and it would REALLY help competition, especially in Juniors where it becomes a case of money vs skill. Kids having to do odd jobs, save their allowances, and buy decks with their own money need all the help they can get. How many of you were one of those, so many years ago? I was, back when base set came out and I was 12...
One solution I would suggest comes from another TCG I used to play. For the life of me the name escapes me, but I want to say .hack//ENEMY
When you purchased X$ from your local hobby shop you were given one of X cards. I think the dollar amount equated to 3 boosters i.e. between 10-12$ at the time. Basically you could take X cards that are super inflated in price and put them in this promotion. It would encourage to buy from your local hobby dealer vs, big box stores. In my experience kids that come to league have a desire to be as good as "that one guy with the shiny deck that beats everyone," and aren't going to be upset over not getting a pretty/cute/strong/cool looking Pokemon. Exceptions to the rule yes I know, but I feel you go somewhere where they play you want to be able to compete. The kids going to Wal Mart may have the same desire to compete, BUT I would say thats where your generic kick butt Pokemon on the pack is selling the pack. Want to make it so that buying X packs doesn't negate the promo supposing to be cheaper? Say multiples of two packs you get a card. Owners could order only so many per whatever to try and avoid greedy people (not just store owners but Harry who wants to be the only kid at league with Catchers.) Store owners get reported for hoarding the items they get cut from ordering the items. Make them slightly different from normal Catchers so if the first day they come out Susie strolls into the store and sees the owner with 20 in the case it's pretty reasonable to guess he dug into the supplies.
Not a perfect system, but TPCi didn't like my application so it's not my job to fine tune such a suggestion.
When you purchased X$ from your local hobby shop you were given one of X cards. I think the dollar amount equated to 3 boosters i.e. between 10-12$ at the time. Basically you could take X cards that are super inflated in price and put them in this promotion. It would encourage to buy from your local hobby dealer vs, big box stores. In my experience kids that come to league have a desire to be as good as "that one guy with the shiny deck that beats everyone," and aren't going to be upset over not getting a pretty/cute/strong/cool looking Pokemon. Exceptions to the rule yes I know, but I feel you go somewhere where they play you want to be able to compete. The kids going to Wal Mart may have the same desire to compete, BUT I would say thats where your generic kick butt Pokemon on the pack is selling the pack. Want to make it so that buying X packs doesn't negate the promo supposing to be cheaper? Say multiples of two packs you get a card. Owners could order only so many per whatever to try and avoid greedy people (not just store owners but Harry who wants to be the only kid at league with Catchers.) Store owners get reported for hoarding the items they get cut from ordering the items. Make them slightly different from normal Catchers so if the first day they come out Susie strolls into the store and sees the owner with 20 in the case it's pretty reasonable to guess he dug into the supplies.
Not a perfect system, but TPCi didn't like my application so it's not my job to fine tune such a suggestion.
meganium45
Active Member
OK, cards shouldn't be obscenely expensive, but not requiring any cost to play this game at the highest level?
If you or your kid is the best in baseball, you'll pay for the best glove, bat, travelling team...or your kid will just not play at that level.
Playing this, or any game at the highest level requires a financial commitment.
Vince
If you or your kid is the best in baseball, you'll pay for the best glove, bat, travelling team...or your kid will just not play at that level.
Playing this, or any game at the highest level requires a financial commitment.
Vince
Otaku
Active Member
Vince: You want to rethink your post before someone with less restrain than I currently have rips it apart?
Edit: Yay board glitch! I started typing this, then decided it didn't sound right. So I deleted it. I refreshed and vaporeon had the latest post, immediately after Vince's. I then contacted Vince via PM.
...
Yet here the post is. -_-
Edit: Yay board glitch! I started typing this, then decided it didn't sound right. So I deleted it. I refreshed and vaporeon had the latest post, immediately after Vince's. I then contacted Vince via PM.
...
Yet here the post is. -_-
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vaporeon
Moderator
The difference is most of those items are a buy once item. Shiny Rayquaza does not need to be at 90 bucks. Catcher does not need to be 10-15. On top of that, these cards lose value fast and sets come out about 4 times a year. Thats a lot of money. On top of that you have to pay your way through traveling. Most sport teams are sponsored. Pokemon players are not in most cases.
FirestormXVI
Member
Why don't you explain why a business owner should continue to dedicate space to a game they can't profit from?
Actually, can you please lose that restrain? Vince is right, it does take a financial commitment to play this game at the competitive level. Very curious to here your argument for this one.
losjackal
Technical Administrator
Gonna disagree with you on this one. Not everyone needs Shiny Rayquaza. But yes, everyone needs up to 4 Catcher in their deck. Want to play competitively? It requires an investment. Tournaments are free to play, and you can have hours of fun with a modified starter deck. But the first thing you need to have a chance at winning is having the right cards. It's okay that $100 stands between the people that are serious and those that aren't.
Juniors and Seniors can't travel and try to win without parental support. At a recent Battle Roads, I tried to explain how the sooner they invest in the right cards (Pokémon Catcher), the better the kid's play will be. And I don't buy your generalization that "these cards lose value fast". The metagame can certainly alter the playability of a Pokémon, but staple cards like Catcher last all season, if not the following season too. They can strategically trade away the valuable staples for other cards at the right time if they are that concerned about preserving their investment.
P.S. Regarding sports, my son played competitive travel soccer for a while. It required payment of around $1000 to the soccer club for the year. Plus of course we spent time and money to travel to the tournaments, and his soccer equipment. It's a commitment to play at a level above everyone else. It costs money.
Otaku
Active Member
Since my post questioning the veracity of Vince's statements wasn't deleted as I thought, I get to answer it anyway. Joy. ¬_¬
Who said that there should be no cost? If I managed to miss a post on a small thread, that is horribly embarrassing, but if not then your post is the only one that makes such an assertion, Vince.
Most of us are concerned that the cost to play a competitive deck is too steep for many players, especially younger. That is not the same thing, and if you were trying to demonstrate a point through exaggeration, well there is a reason I have been trying to stop using that technique myself; it doesn't work too well.
No one is saying that the game should be free, and the logic behind keeping "entry costs" down seems to hold even when taken to extremes.
We aren't talking about being the best, we are talking about the ability to play at a competitive level; lacking Pokémon Catcher is crippling. I don't know every deck in the game, so maybe there is one that doesn't use it, but most I see run at least three copies... unless the person doesn't have them.
While there are more practical issues with quality (that can affect performance) for sporting equipment, if we are comparing the expenses for sporting equipment to TCG costs, then the equivalent of buying the best bat, gloves, etc. equates to buying "golden" Pokémon Catcher and top quality sleeves.
Both are going to have travel expenses (and similar things), so again the comparison fails.
This is a factual statement but also don't apply to this discussion. We are talking about any attempts at competitive play, not just going to Worlds, Nationals, etc. The price of Pokemon Catcher is frustrating for even casual play.
---------- Post added 10/05/2012 at 10:04 AM ----------
Except that post you quoted wasn't addressing that point, was it? It was questioning the dubious comparison of high level sports competition to playing the Pokémon TCG beyond the most casual of levels.
I already tried to address the business side of it; bad set is bad set. ¬_¬
Who said that there should be no cost? If I managed to miss a post on a small thread, that is horribly embarrassing, but if not then your post is the only one that makes such an assertion, Vince.
Most of us are concerned that the cost to play a competitive deck is too steep for many players, especially younger. That is not the same thing, and if you were trying to demonstrate a point through exaggeration, well there is a reason I have been trying to stop using that technique myself; it doesn't work too well.
No one is saying that the game should be free, and the logic behind keeping "entry costs" down seems to hold even when taken to extremes.
We aren't talking about being the best, we are talking about the ability to play at a competitive level; lacking Pokémon Catcher is crippling. I don't know every deck in the game, so maybe there is one that doesn't use it, but most I see run at least three copies... unless the person doesn't have them.
While there are more practical issues with quality (that can affect performance) for sporting equipment, if we are comparing the expenses for sporting equipment to TCG costs, then the equivalent of buying the best bat, gloves, etc. equates to buying "golden" Pokémon Catcher and top quality sleeves.
Both are going to have travel expenses (and similar things), so again the comparison fails.
This is a factual statement but also don't apply to this discussion. We are talking about any attempts at competitive play, not just going to Worlds, Nationals, etc. The price of Pokemon Catcher is frustrating for even casual play.
---------- Post added 10/05/2012 at 10:04 AM ----------
Except that post you quoted wasn't addressing that point, was it? It was questioning the dubious comparison of high level sports competition to playing the Pokémon TCG beyond the most casual of levels.
I already tried to address the business side of it; bad set is bad set. ¬_¬
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losjackal
Technical Administrator
Otaku, I think you took the "best" too literally. The way I see things, "the best" encompasses not only the people who commit above everyone else (in time and money), but also a desire to be the best. Yeah, if you want to be competitive, you need the right cards. That includes Pokémon Catcher. If you are just in it for "casual play", grab a theme deck, improve it as much as you are able, and spend the afternoon at a Tournament. That's supposed to be fun, right?
If you want to talk about Nationals and Worlds-caliber players, then we are talking Tropical Beach and until recently SR Rayquaza. Before that (in my limited experience) it was Luxray GL Lv X. We are still talking about Premier-level events here, that have Championship Points on the line. I don't see the problem of certain cards being "required" to be competitive. One set of average baseball or soccer cleats can cost $60. That's four Catchers right there....
If you want to talk about Nationals and Worlds-caliber players, then we are talking Tropical Beach and until recently SR Rayquaza. Before that (in my limited experience) it was Luxray GL Lv X. We are still talking about Premier-level events here, that have Championship Points on the line. I don't see the problem of certain cards being "required" to be competitive. One set of average baseball or soccer cleats can cost $60. That's four Catchers right there....
psychup2034
New Member
Moreover, if you're playing casually, just proxy up your Pokemon Catchers. I have about 30-40 Gust of Winds from way back and I use those as proxies.
If you want to play in a tournament, then just buy the damn Pokemon Catchers. Think of it as an upfront (overhead) cost to playing.
Otaku
Active Member
I guess I should be clear.
I reject the comparison of playing Pokemon beyond the most casual of levels with "being the best" in a sport. The comparison fails when we are talking about the major leagues, and it fails when we are talking about the school team in in grade school. It falls apart when you realize you're comparing gear for safety and improved performance with colorful pieces of card board. The comparison just fails.
The game is designed for Pokemon Catcher to be present; I've had to go over this point again recently in a thread on Six Prizes. So while you might be able to play casually for fun without it, not everyone can. If we are going to use proxies for casual play, I can just proxy an entire deck, or use World Championship decks.
So to enjoy playing in a Pokemon League with a legal, competent deck, that's $60 USD plus!
If I want to play in a tournament I will... wait for the cards to be re-released, to find a good deal, or find a different game.
As for the business side of it, I notice everyone keeps ignoring that a bad set is a bad set. Starting to understand why Pokemon booster sales aren't generating enough revenue for store owners; if to get my playset of Pokemon Catcher I've got to get lucky with boosters or shell out that much to buy singly, I will...
...not play. Which also means I won't be buying either way.
I reject the comparison of playing Pokemon beyond the most casual of levels with "being the best" in a sport. The comparison fails when we are talking about the major leagues, and it fails when we are talking about the school team in in grade school. It falls apart when you realize you're comparing gear for safety and improved performance with colorful pieces of card board. The comparison just fails.
The game is designed for Pokemon Catcher to be present; I've had to go over this point again recently in a thread on Six Prizes. So while you might be able to play casually for fun without it, not everyone can. If we are going to use proxies for casual play, I can just proxy an entire deck, or use World Championship decks.
So to enjoy playing in a Pokemon League with a legal, competent deck, that's $60 USD plus!
If I want to play in a tournament I will... wait for the cards to be re-released, to find a good deal, or find a different game.
As for the business side of it, I notice everyone keeps ignoring that a bad set is a bad set. Starting to understand why Pokemon booster sales aren't generating enough revenue for store owners; if to get my playset of Pokemon Catcher I've got to get lucky with boosters or shell out that much to buy singly, I will...
...not play. Which also means I won't be buying either way.
Everything is so affordable these days, I remember when decks cost upwards of at least 250$, all the playable things are tins or inexpensive exs, I don't mind at all catchers not being league promos there is supposed to be some expensive cards and they've taken most of them out by the tins and promoing everything.
psychup2034
New Member
Remember that you are one data point. Your behavior may not be reflective of the market. You seem to think that having to shell out $60 is a lot of money to be competitive, but a lot of people's actions would indicate that they disagree (as partially evidenced by record tournament numbers this year).
You seem to have this strange notion that if you need to get lucky with boosters or shell out cash to get cards singly, that's always bad for sales. However, you forget cards like Mewtwo EX and Darkrai EX, two cards that drove prerelease numbers and sales of Next Destinies and Dark Explorers. Literally every competitive deck aside from Durant in that format needed Mewtwo EX, yet we didn't see the net amount of players drop (record Regionals numbers). I understand that Emerging Powers was a relatively bad set, but your idea that there will be an exodus from the game because of expensive staples is way off base.
baby mario
Front Page Article Editor<br><a href="http://pokeg
Relative to other card games, Pokemon players do pretty well.
Not everything will be affordable to everyone, however much we would like it to be.
A playset of Catcher may cost $60, but they are going in every deck you build for two seasons (three if you bought them on release). Doesn't seem like terrible value. It's pretty much the same as a playset of Holon Transceiver was a few years ago. Or 2-3 Claydol before they became a promo. Or a playset of pre-promo Uxie . . .
Not everything will be affordable to everyone, however much we would like it to be.
A playset of Catcher may cost $60, but they are going in every deck you build for two seasons (three if you bought them on release). Doesn't seem like terrible value. It's pretty much the same as a playset of Holon Transceiver was a few years ago. Or 2-3 Claydol before they became a promo. Or a playset of pre-promo Uxie . . .
psychup2034
New Member
"Affordable" is a highly debatable term.
Pokemon is relatively more affordable than the other two "Big 3" card games. Playing Pokemon today is also relatively more affordable than playing Pokemon a couple years ago, where a competitive deck would cost upwards of $200.
Oh I know it's cheaper than it used to be, but at least for someone like me, it's still not exactly affordable. xD;
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