Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Should Pokemon Catcher Be Made Into a League Promo?

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How do any of you (especially Vince) think the need for value in packs and the need for inexpensive cards should be balanced out?

Personally, I like when sets have lots of useful cards in them. Stormfront was a great set (Gengar, Machamp, Dusknoir, Drapion, Abomasnow, Gyarados, Sableye, Luxury Ball, Poke+ cards, the shinies, the Charizard line reprint). Legends Awakened comes to mind as well (Kingdra, AMU, Regice, Ditto, Regigigas, Unown R, Pokeradar, Cynthia's Feelings, Snowpoint Temple, Gliscor, Mewtwo Level X). Without having any insanely expensive cards (though admittedly, Uxie started to creep up there before the reprint) I saw those as sets where I could open a pack and have a high expected value. Sets without any supporters at all strike me as sets that will not hold value. Dragons Exalted probably won't be valued in the future unless some EX spikes, but even then it is doubtful that more than one of them will to really push the set.
 
I REALLY don't like how a lot of people here seem to feel that if someone can't pay the price, they're not serious players/collectors. :/ I get that Pokemon's way cheaper than the other card games, but just because someone doesn't have the means to pay $15 for a single card, doesn't mean they don't desperately want to.
 
I REALLY don't like how a lot of people here seem to feel that if someone can't pay the price, they're not serious players/collectors. :/ I get that Pokemon's way cheaper than the other card games, but just because someone doesn't have the means to pay $15 for a single card, doesn't mean they don't desperately want to.

I totally agree. It seems like a lot of people are also foregtting that you aren't spending $15 but $60 because 4 Catchers are pretty much needed in every single deck. To me it's very telling that a cheap deck (say $100-$120) over half of your deck's price is 4 cards, and that many times includes some higher-priced new cards (Dark trance Hydreigon, Mewtwo EX, Darkrai EX).
 
There's two ways to look at the above. On the very good side, those same four Trainer cards fit into every deck. You only need 4 no matter how many decks you create throughout this year (and likely next year too).
 
Why? No, seriously, why not?

Because luxury goods as not considered essential. Luxury goods do not have any reason (moral, legal, etc.) to be available/affordable to everyone.

Otherwise the standard business practice is to price your product only as high as the market can bear while achieving maximum market penetration. That is how you maximize profit. Of course, neither of these apply to the secondary market prices.

Pokemon cards are effectively a natural monopoly. You describe a pricing scheme in a competitive market. Do you know how pricing for a natural monopoly works? Natural monopolies have an incentive to produce less than a competitive market would supply and charge a higher price than would exist in a competitive market.

Suggesting that I was expressing such a thing is useful; it is good to know you have no real argument beyond "I did it this way and you should have to as well!"

Edit: Upon re-reading that last sentence crossed the line into a personal attack, but deleting it just makes more problems.

Don't worry, I generally don't get offended by anything people say. I don't think you've crossed any lines.

My argument is the very simple reality that not everyone can afford everything. When you can't afford a luxury good, then you can't afford the luxury good. Too bad. I've lived through it. Millions of people in America live through it. Pokemon doesn't have to make cards affordable for everyone who wants to play. This is just an unfortunate reality of how a capitalist market works.

Pokemon shouldn't make cards more affordable (i.e., devalue the secondary market through additional releases of staples, etc.) just because some people can't afford Pokemon cards. Pokemon should make most of their release decisions based on their own profit-maximizing interests and the interests of their distributors. That's how companies operate. Obviously, the current price of Pokemon cards is still driving sales, so why fix something that isn't broken?

Just because someone wants something that is a luxury good, it doesn't mean that the company should make it affordable to that person. That's just really selfish. "I want the good Pokemon cards, so Pokemon should make those cards more affordable for me." "I want courtside seats, so my favorite sports team should make those tickets more affordable for me." "I want a new Ferrari, so Ferrari should make their cars more affordable for me."

Sorry, that's not how the world works.
 
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Personally I think it depends on how much longer Catcher is going to be around...unless it gets reprinted, it's potentially looking at being cut next season while the upcoming Warp Point will take over (which imo isn't that bad of an option, as Catcher is kinda powerful outside of an Ace Spec deal), so I'd rather not bother. But if Catcher will be hanging around for next format, I'm all for league promos then.
 
Personally I think it depends on how much longer Catcher is going to be around...unless it gets reprinted, it's potentially looking at being cut next season while the upcoming Warp Point will take over (which imo isn't that bad of an option, as Catcher is kinda powerful outside of an Ace Spec deal), so I'd rather not bother. But if Catcher will be hanging around for next format, I'm all for league promos then.

I can't see 5 sets being rotated this season. The Dark Explorers reprint will be enough to keep it around for another year.
 
I don't even see their being a rotation this year tbh. It just doesn't seem right for their to be one imo. My opinion may change later on though when our spring set comes.
 
It could just be Black & White Base Set, Emerging Powers, and Noble Victories are rotated....leaving Next Destinies onward because that's when all the EX's started. Since Pokémon Catcher was reprinted in Dark Explorers, it would survive that rotation.
 
It could just be Black & White Base Set, Emerging Powers, and Noble Victories are rotated....leaving Next Destinies onward because that's when all the EX's started. Since Pokémon Catcher was reprinted in Dark Explorers, it would survive that rotation.

Yeah to me it seems very likely to happen. We will never get rid of catcher!!!

What would be funny is if they rotated everything up to dark explorers exept catcher...
 
Because luxury goods as not considered essential. Luxury goods do not have any reason (moral, legal, etc.) to be available/affordable to everyone.

You again ignore that for the seller, there is usually (I cited to exceptions; if you can name others, feel free) incentive to create as broad a market as possible. I am not advocating that Pokémon is a necessity by any means.

However classifying Pokémon as something for the "affluent" doesn't really sound accurate, does it? I mean, TPC could certainly choose to go that route, but despite our complaints it they do appear to be trying to avoid being available only to the higher income levels of society.

We might consider the TCG to be a mass luxury good... but there goes your argument about not appealing to a larger consumer base.

Pokemon cards are effectively a natural monopoly.

No they aren't; they compete against all other trading card games. Claiming they are a monopoly ignores people's ability to buy a similar but non-identical product. If there are substitute goods, which at least would include other TCGs and arguably could include other forms of entertainment, this seems pretty far from a monopoly.

Do you know how pricing for a natural monopoly works? Natural monopolies have an incentive to produce less than a competitive market would supply and charge a higher price than would exist in a competitive market.

As stated, the Pokémon TCG is not only not a natural monopoly, but not a monopoly at all.

Don't worry, I generally don't get offended by anything people say. I don't think you've crossed any lines.

Nonetheless, I am going to try and hold myself to a higher standard than I have been, though I am pleased I have not been offending you.

My argument is the very simple reality that not everyone can afford everything.

Which is no argument at all. You can keep referring to the TCG as a "luxury good" reserved for the upper rungs of disposable income, but it does not match the reality of how the Pokémon TCG is marketed.

When you can't afford a luxury good, then you can't afford the luxury good. Too bad. I've lived through it. Millions of people in America live through it.

This seems like an emotional appeal masquerading as logic. I've already stated that Pokémon is not a luxury good, unless we use a very, very broad definition that pretty much encompasses any non-essential recreational product. You've lived through not being able to afford the game... but you have not proven that a particular threshold is "correct".

TPC determines who they are marketing to, and you have painted anyone that won't spend double digits on a piece of card board as being either "poor" or "stingy".

Pokemon doesn't have to make cards affordable for everyone who wants to play.

...and besides you, who all is saying that? You seem to understand business, so I shouldn't have to keep explaining things in minute detail. I am not telling TPCi to distribute packs below cost, and in fact have made sure that they shoot for maximum profits... but not on a per-pack basis.

If it costs me $1 per unit for the entire production and distribution of my widgets, I can set my price how I see fit. If it is too high, no one will buy. If I set it too low, I'll lose money. My goal is not to simply pick an arbitrary price between those two. Maybe people will pay $5 per widget, but demand will only be for 100 units. My market research then tells me that if I lower my price to $4 per widget, I will double the demand and sell 200 units in the same time frame I used to sell 100 units.

I had to increase production (which benefits those involved), but assuming I had the capacity to do so without heavy investment that would raise my operating and/or manufacturing costs (in other words, it is still costing $1 per widget to manufacture) while my per unit profit margin has shrunk, my overall profits are up!

How does this tie into Pokémon? Let us assume booster packs are priced for maximum profits (not per unit, but overall). If the secondary market gets too high, it can drive off the primary market; unlike my straight forward example, the primary and secondary markets are quite interrelated in a TCG. If the secondary market prices are too low, boosters feel like a rip off. If they are too high... we need to look at the demand for the particular goods.

Pokémon Catcher is a high demand card, and most decks are going to run three or four copies. While it is true this means the more decks you run, the more you can spread out this cost, that only works if you can afford the rest of what you need to make a second deck. If I don't have two viable decks, I don't get to spread out that cost.

So players who either can't or simply won't spend that much on a game that uses pieces of cardboard... don't. They don't bother buying the booster packs or similar primary market product they would have, because they know the primary market is highly unlikely to meet the minimum product needs of even the mildly competitive game.

This is just an unfortunate reality of how a capitalist market works.

Not really; you've made a lot of assumptions and assertions I disagree with, and you've given little to nothing to support them, at least credibly. You paint the TCG as a high end luxury good, like a luxury car, and then you claim a monopoly where none exists.

I know how the capitalist market works, and this is neither unfortunate nor a reality.

Pokemon shouldn't make cards more affordable (i.e., devalue the secondary market through additional releases of staples, etc.) just because some people can't afford Pokemon cards.

Again, this isn't what is being discussed, at least by me. If you are addressing others, please clarify; I'll quit wasting both our time. Most criticisms are because the inflated secondary market prices for cards essential to the most basic forms of competitive, Modified format play prohibit an otherwise willing portion of the market from participating, and the card supply is rare simply because TPC has chosen not to increase it to meet demand.

Pokemon should make most of their release decisions based on their own profit-maximizing interests and the interests of their distributors. That's how companies operate. Obviously, the current price of Pokemon cards is still driving sales, so why fix something that isn't broken?

So you never tweak your decks once it wins a little? I do not disagree with Pokémon making decisions around maximizing their profits. Saying otherwise is fraudulent or indicates we might as well stop this discussion, because you aren't understanding me at all.

Remember that interests of the distributors are not the same as Pokémon. Pokémon would find it much harder, perhaps impossible, to operate without their current distributors... but what is best for one may not be best for another.

So, just to be clear, if you're going to keep insisting Pokémon is a high end luxury good like a Ferrari, that it is a monopoly, we have little reason to continue the discussion.
 
No they aren't; they compete against all other trading card games. Claiming they are a monopoly ignores people's ability to buy a similar but non-identical product. If there are substitute goods, which at least would include other TCGs and arguably could include other forms of entertainment, this seems pretty far from a monopoly.

One company (and its subsidiaries) owns the rights to all the Pokemon cards printed in the world. Claiming that Pokemon is not a monopoly ignores the very simple fact that other trading card games are not a substitute for Pokemon. For example, most Pokemon players would not switch to playing Yu-Gi-Oh. If Yu-Gi-Oh suddenly started selling their cards at half price, Pokemon players would still be unlikely to switch games.

I understand the argument that you’re trying to make, but grouping all the trading card games together (Pokemon, Magic, Yu-Gi-Oh, Neopets, Kaijudo, Harry Potter, etc.) and claiming that these card games compete against in a competitive market pricing system is wrong. If anything, these trading card games form an oligopoly, which also does not price their goods as competitive firms do. Brand loyalty and sufficient brand differentiation can lead to monopolistic competition even within a similar good. For example, almost no-one considers Toyota and Mercedes Benz to be competing in the same space, even though they both produce vehicles.

As stated, the Pokémon TCG is not only not a natural monopoly, but not a monopoly at all.

As stated (or rather, implied), one would be extremely foolish to think that Pokemon and other trading card games set prices using a strict competitive market pricing scheme.

Which is no argument at all. You can keep referring to the TCG as a "luxury good" reserved for the upper rungs of disposable income, but it does not match the reality of how the Pokémon TCG is marketed.

Luxury goods are not goods reserved for the upper rungs of disposable income. Certain types of alcohol, for example, are luxury goods, yet individuals who are below the poverty line regularly consume these luxury goods. Rims on car wheels are another luxury good. I don’t remember the exact figure, but there was a New York Times article that described that a majority of people (something like 80%) who buy rims are below the median income level. (The point of the article was about minorities wasting their money on non-essential luxury goods.)

It is incorrect to say that luxury goods are reserved for the upper rungs of disposable income. For example, casinos are a luxury good (service) mainly marketed to people all across the income spectrum (in other words, marketing is income-insensitive). Pokemon marketing is similar in the sense that it targets people with all different types of incomes.

How does this tie into Pokémon? Let us assume booster packs are priced for maximum profits (not per unit, but overall). If the secondary market gets too high, it can drive off the primary market; unlike my straight forward example, the primary and secondary markets are quite interrelated in a TCG. If the secondary market prices are too low, boosters feel like a rip off. If they are too high... we need to look at the demand for the particular goods.

I don’t think the secondary market prices are too high. They’re fine. This is a business. If a consumer can’t afford a product, then that particular consumer isn’t part of Pokemon’s target audience. Pokemon isn’t required to cater to the demands of entitled consumers who can’t afford the product, just like any other business that sells a luxury good. Apple doesn’t have to sell you an iPad for less than $500. If a consumer can’t afford it, too bad. That’s how the world works.

I’m not trying to make an emotional appeal. I’m trying to explain how the actual world works. We don’t live in a socialist system where the economic decision makers believe that everything should be affordable to everyone. As a firm believer in market capitalism (I was raised in North America after all), I believe that non-essential goods should not be affordable to everyone. If I were educated in a socialist-leaning country, I would most likely agree with you. Fortunately, I wasn't.
 
First, yes I edited out the list from your quote; me repeating it isn't necessary and my response will be long enough as is.

Second, I reject your premise.

TCGs have to compete with a variety of entertainment forms, and while the entire burden of the game's cost is reflected in the MSRP, that doesn't apply to the secondary market. Even if Pokemon isn't "expensive" by other TCG standards, doesn't mean it is "cheap".


It's not cheap? Really?

My friends that play WoW can't afford to be competitive players because according to them a good deck costs over $500 to make.

I just dropped $60 on a new game for the PS3, which took me about 15 hours to beat (about a week of playing) as opposed to my Pokemon cards, which still hold value and are as re-sellable as the game (if not more), but I've gotten many more hours of enjoyment out of (easily 100+). Note - this is something completely casual with no competitive element. Technically you can be non-competitive in Pokemon for way less than $100.

Another friend of mine plays Tennis as a hobby. He has to pay monthly club fees to be able to use the court, and let's not even talk about cost of equipment and proper clothes. And when he was competitive, the costs of a coach was NOT cheap.

My boss goes boating on weekends. It can cost him hundreds of dollars just to fill up gas on the thing to go on a nice fishing trip. Don't even mention other costs like fishing poles, bait, etc.

With Pokemon, I spent about $100 3 months ago and through trading/selling cards to adjust my deck or change my deck, my only cost has been driving to league/tournmanets. That's it. And here's the best part - with Pokemon you can be competitive for $100. Try being competitive at any sport or any other TCG for less than that.

I'm sorry, but I don't respect this entitlement attitude that a lot of players seem to have. They have released numerous cards and reprinted even more of them to make them more affordable and that's STILL not enough? They reprinted the 3 best EXs in tins and still you want more? If they reprint Catcher, you'll just find another card to complain about and the cycle never ends.

Hobbies aren't meant to be affordable to everyone. Not all hobbies are free or cheap. That's life - that's reality. I can't afford the cost of maintaining a boat like my boss can, but I don't complain about it. I don't ask the boating companies to sell me a cheaper boat. I don't bug Exxon for cheaper gas. I don't call up the President and ask him to do something about it because, darn it, I want a boat. I accept that it's beyond my means and if I ever get a big enough raise, maybe I'll be able to afford it as a hobby. If the costs of Pokemon are too bothersome for you then don't play.
 
@ Swordfish1989

Playing the Pokemon TCG is like owning a boat. I don't need to play Pokemon to get through life. Like a boat, it makes life more enjoyable to those who partake in it. The issue with gas is it IS inflated. Gas prices does not need to be as high as they are and people DO complain about but not as much on a Pokemon related forum.

What I don't get is why players think everyone should be playing on the same level they are. Not everyone can afford to buy competitive singles. I can drop 2 bucks on a playset of Switch. I can also drop 2 bucks on a playset Recycle but 72 bucks on a playset of Catchers is a BIG deal to many players.

You NEED Pokemon Catcher to be competitive. There's no auguring that. You'll be a at major disadvantage without them because you lose the option to take key knockouts. To expand on what Otaku was saying about Pokemon being a monopoly. I say its not and I agree with him because you don't have to play Pokemon. The biggest issue with Pokemon is the secondary market. The cost of Pokemon card singles don't match the competitive cost of cards.

In other card games, many other cards are worth money, not just the URs. In Pokemon, ONLY the UR's are worth money and that creates a inflated market for them because nothing else is worth anything when comparing them to other legal cards in the format. Now some cards break that rule like Catcher and some stage 2 Pokemon.

What people need to understand is the difference in the need and the want. You need Pokemon catcher to play this format competitively. You however DONT need Gold Pokemon Catcher. The Golden Catcher is a want. Pokemon Catcher is not a luxury good. Pokemon Catcher is like a car. You need Catcher as much as you need a car. Golden Pokemon Catcher is a luxury good for those who want 'status'. Golden Catcher is like having a Ferrari. They both do the same as their cheaper counterparts but are for those who can 'afford' them. The same is with EX Pokemon and Full Art Trainers and Pokemon EX. You don't need them because they are considered luxury goods.

The problem with catcher is you can no longer buy the set they come in. I have not found a store here that sells them anymore. This causes catchers price to inflate. They are almost 20 buck for a non foil version of the card. Thats insane and I think the card needs to be reprinted.
 
One company (and its subsidiaries) owns the rights to all the Pokemon cards printed in the world. Claiming that Pokemon is not a monopoly ignores the very simple fact that other trading card games are not a substitute for Pokemon.

Other than seeing the Socialist comment as I deleted the rest for the purpose of quoting, I stopped right there. No sense continuing when we flat out disagree on the facts. Also, of course I was educated in a left-leaning Socialist country; I was educated in the government schools of the United States of America.

It's not cheap? Really?

My friends that play WoW can't afford to be competitive players because according to them a good deck costs over $500 to make.

If you're going to claim that because some TCGs are more expensive than Pokémon, Pokémon is by default "cheap", quit wasting our time. The argument has been made and rejected for the fallacy it is. If you have two relatives to visit, and one required an 8 hour international trip to reach and the other required a 9 hour trip, that doesn't make the former a "short" trip. It is the shorter of the two trips, but it isn't short in and of itself.

Again, since we can't agree on what reality is, I am not wasting my time slogging through your posts.
 
Other than seeing the Socialist comment as I deleted the rest for the purpose of quoting, I stopped right there. No sense continuing when we flat out disagree on the facts. Also, of course I was educated in a left-leaning Socialist country; I was educated in the government schools of the United States of America.

If you think the United States is a left-leaning socialist country, you are severely undereducated about the governments of European countries.

If you're going to claim that because some TCGs are more expensive than Pokémon, Pokémon is by default "cheap", quit wasting our time. The argument has been made and rejected for the fallacy it is. If you have two relatives to visit, and one required an 8 hour international trip to reach and the other required a 9 hour trip, that doesn't make the former a "short" trip. It is the shorter of the two trips, but it isn't short in and of itself.

You argue that Pokemon competes with other TCGs, but you think comparing Pokemon's prices to other TCGs is invalid. Stop contradicting yourself.

Notice how I always use the words "relatively cheaper." Pokemon is relatively cheaper than the other card games. You're deflecting because you know that Pokemon is the cheapest of the big 3 trading card games to play competitively.

A competitve Pokemon deck costs $150. A competitve WoW deck costs $500 (according to Swordfish). If you have two relative to visit, and one required a 5 hour trip to reach and the other required a 1.5 hour trip, the 1.5 hour trip is a shorter trip. :nonono:

Again, since we can't agree on what reality is, I am not wasting my time slogging through your posts.

This sounds awfully like "I don't have a good argument, so I'm just going to use a deflective ploy to make myself seem right." Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Make an argument.
 
If the USA was a socialist country, we wouldn't be spending nearly 6 figures to go to college sometimes :v
 
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