Should Pokemon Catcher Be Made Into a League Promo?

[Jaeger]

Yay! Eric Nance is calling store owners idiots and making blanket statements!!!

You had a great post...but I strongly disagree with a personal attack that started it. While his statements might have been a blanket statement or generalization I think they pretty well describe the store I play at. They have no idea what a Pokemon Catcher. I would say they take less interest in the game because it is on the lower end of there money making games. Vince I thought your store was amazing when we were there for Regs...but I can also tell you its not the standard.

---------- Post added 10/06/2012 at 12:48 AM ----------

Pokemon is relatively more affordable than the other two "Big 3" card games. Playing Pokemon today is also relatively more affordable than playing Pokemon a couple years ago, where a competitive deck would cost upwards of $200.

Also many of the "staples" are used in many different decks. Once I drop $100 in Pokemon that same $100 will make up a good chunk of any $100+ deck I build.

 

[CaterpiesAreOP]

I really wouldn't mind them being released as league promos. I've bought about a box worth of Emerging powers and have never pulled ANY in loose packs. I've pulled a regular catcher in a Snivy box and a reverse one in a Darkrai Tin. To build my Darkrai/Hydreigon I pulled just about everything. I traded for maybe 5 cards for my deck. I still think Pokemon is fairly affordable compared to MTG and Yugioh. I spent maybe 300+ on packs, a case of tins, and some random promo boxes.

 

[psychup2034]

Also many of the "staples" are used in many different decks. Once I drop $100 in Pokemon that same $100 will make up a good chunk of any $100+ deck I build.

But the same is true today. Basically the entire supporter line, Pokemon Catchers, Ultra Balls, etc. are used in every single deck. I was just pointing out that building an entire deck from scratch is relatively cheaper today than it was a two or three seasons ago. Moreover, if you were to remove the cost of staples, a deck today is still relatively cheaper than it was two or three seasons ago.

 

[Otaku]

But the same is true today. Basically the entire supporter line, Pokemon Catchers, Ultra Balls, etc. are used in every single deck. I was just pointing out that building an entire deck from scratch is relatively cheaper today than it was a two or three seasons ago. Moreover, if you were to remove the cost of staples, a deck today is still relatively cheaper than it was two or three seasons ago.

And... some of us still can't afford them.

Playing a TCG at the higher levels does require investment.

When you have to start leaving out general staples for a deck, that isn't what a lot of us mean by casual play.

So to play Pokemon casually (not incompletely) still means shelling out for at least two or three Pokémon Catcher on top of the rest of my deck. That doesn't need to scare off all casual players to be a concern for a business. Nor is Vince the only one with any knowledge of business; I understand he's done a lot more in this area to be influential than I have (I've just got a degree and no direct experience in the TCG industry).

When I stop and think about the situation, I come to the conclusion that Vince (actually, most of us) should be a lot more worried about the overall quality of TCG sets (especially sans chase cards) than he should be about TPC hypothetically reprinting a card... a card that may be moving one of his slow moving sets, but who's scarcity also scares off some potential customers.

 

[psychup2034]

And... some of us still can't afford them.

Right. Which is why I had to quit Pokemon back in 2005, because my parents were in debt, our family had to go on food stamps, and I could no longer afford to play Pokemon. I was also going to college that year, so I had no car and no money (textbooks were expensive to a 17-year-old me, and obviously my parents couldn't afford to buy them). I also worked 2 different jobs to try to pay my way through college. Just because I couldn't afford Pokemon back then, it didn't mean that I whined about the price of cards. I understood that as a hobby, Pokemon was relatively inexpensive, and it was my financial situation that prevented me from pursuing my hobby/passion. Guess what? That's life. I dealt with it.

I made the difficult decision of retiring from the game (despite having had a lot of success), as life got in the way. Now that I've graduated from college and paid back my parents' debts and my student loans, I have the means to pursue my hobby/passion. That's how life works.

To this day, Pokemon is still the least expensive of the "Big 3" trading card games. Any way you slice it, as a trading card game, Pokemon is relatively affordable.

That highly competitive player base? The one that thinks $100 for a deck is a huge bargain? You're a minority as well. Don't ignore those of us who can't afford to spend that much on most hobbies, let alone pieces of card board.

Life is a little harsh, but I've lived through it, so I'm speaking from personal experience. If I can't pay $100 for a deck, maybe it's not the game's problem, but my own financial problem. For me, I made the decision that I couldn't afford Pokemon, so I retired from the game. When my family was on food stamps, I thought $100 was expensive for a deck, but I know that for the general population, that is not the case.

I think the game should ignore those of us who can't afford to spend that much on a deck. Pokemon is a luxury good. Pricing for a luxury good should not be made at the point where everyone it is affordable for everyone. If the business people at Pokemon priced their product such that everyone can afford to buy it, they would be fired instantly for their incompetence. In fact, if Pokemon priced their product such that everyone can afford to buy it, they would go out of business because the price point would need to be so low.

Not everyone can afford everything, that's just a fact of life. I can't afford to buy a yacht (although I want one). That being said, I don't think the yacht company should pay attention to those non-millionaires (like me) who can't afford to buy a yacht. I'm just not in their market. I just can't pay for it. Too bad, that's life.

 

[Otaku]

Any way you slice it, as a trading card game, Pokemon is relatively affordable.

Key word is "relatively". It may be the cheapest of the big three, but they are all overpriced.

Repeatedly you implied that $60 for four Pokémon Catcher was inexpensive.

It isn't. It just isn't as expensive as some other games.

 

[CMsvW]

In my opinion, Pokemon shouldn't keep telling everyone that this game is for kids and then make it where decks are $150 or so.

They need to keep decks around $100-200 and offer more support towards masters OR they need to make the average deck $50-75 and keep the support the way it is.

 

[Otaku]

I think the game should ignore those of us who can't afford to spend that much on a deck. Pokemon is a luxury good. Pricing for a luxury good should not be made at the point where everyone it is affordable for everyone.

Why? No, seriously, why not? If it is because the company producing would have to take a loss, that goes without saying. If a product derives much of its perceived value (and thus profits from sales) by marketing itself as a status symbol, that also would justify not striving for greater market penetration.

Otherwise the standard business practice is to price your product only as high as the market can bear while achieving maximum market penetration. That is how you maximize profit. Of course, neither of these apply to the secondary market prices.

For that, the company must weigh how many potential customers decide not to purchase the product because the secondary prices either can't or won't be paid by those customers. In this case, I am making my case that I find the secondary market prices prohibitive.

If the business people at Pokemon priced their product such that everyone can afford to buy it, they would be fired instantly for their incompetence.

Only if that entails selling at a loss, something that would be considered pretty obviously not an option. There are a few industries where such things are possible, but they require the ability to cost shift. [DEL] Suggesting that I was expressing such a thing is useful; it is good to know you have no real argument beyond "I did it this way and you should have to as well!"
[/DEL]

Edit: Upon re-reading that last sentence crossed the line into a personal attack, but deleting it just makes more problems. Of course if psychup2034 or a Mod requests it, it's gone completely. Trying to state that point in a polite way, no I wasn't suggesting that companies take a loss to sell Pokémon, and while this isn't the first time that claim has been made against a statement I have made, I still don't know why.

This is especially revealing since the issue for players wanting a reprint of Pokémon Catcher is the secondary market prices and the low availability in one set of dubious quality (as an Uncommon) or as a Secret Rare in a different set.

Vince is concerned with the larger aspects of selling the Pokémon TCG, my disagreement with him (besides feeling insulted by his earlier posts, which honestly is negligible) was that I think he hasn't stepped back far enough; he is worried about moving a one-year-old set verus making the game more accessible so that he might see more sales overall... and in either case, it still comes down to issues of set design and card balance.

 

[solo59486]

In my opinion, Pokemon shouldn't keep telling everyone that this game is for kids and then make it where decks are $150 or so.

They need to keep decks around $100-200 and offer more support towards masters OR they need to make the average deck $50-75 and keep the support the way it is.

Pokemon doesn't make the decks, we do and they don't know how much any card or deck is going to be worth because it depends how much we hype the cards or decks or how good it becomes too be...

Also this game is always going to be aimed towards the kids no matter what imo.

 

[CMsvW]

Pokemon doesn't make the decks, we do and they don't know how much any card or deck is going to be worth because it depends how much we hype the cards or decks or how good it becomes too be...

Also this game is always going to be aimed towards the kids no matter what imo.

But they have the ability to control prices (promos, theme decks, n such). Plus I'm sure they have a general idea what's going to be good and what isn't.

Ok, and I'm fine with that. Try to make the decks more "kid-friendly" in price then

 

[baby mario]

I don't think Vince was worrying about EPO specifically.

His point was that if TPCI's reaction to (relatively) high secondary market prices is to issue a promo every time, then that makes shifting current and future product more difficult for a store owner.

Nintendo has no moral obligation to give us the cheapest possible card game. I have no clue if price reductions would increase sales volume enough to maintain their profits (they are not a charity after all). I bet their marketing division has a pretty good idea though (or at least they have access to the relevant info/research, while we don't).

Is EPO a bad set? Yeah, of course it was, and apart from Catcher, virtually every playable card in it has been released as a promo or theme deck card. We are going to get these bad sets from time to time simply because of the difference in the way cards are released here and in Japan.

 

[solo59486]

But they have the ability to control prices (promos, theme decks, n such). Plus I'm sure they have a general idea what's going to be good and what isn't.

Ok, and I'm fine with that. Try to make the decks for "kid-friendly" in price then

Yes they do have control of the prices for the theme decks and such however you are talking about competitive decks (and most likely singles) that they don't have control over. What they should do is put more of the good Ex's in tins like the ones we just got and maybe put some of the good holo cards in theme decks or blister packs imo. Like they could make the upcoming blastoise into a theme deck or maybe put 1 EX in it. That way you still have to spend a bit of money for cards and pokemon can make a profit over it imo.

Also I don't think they care if a card is going to be good or not, but i don't know...

 

[CMsvW]

Yes they do have control of the prices for the theme decks and such however you are talking about competitive decks (and most likely singles) that they don't have control over. What they should do is put more of the good Ex's in tins like the ones we just got and maybe put some of the good holo cards in theme decks or blister packs imo. Like they could make the upcoming blastoise into a theme deck or maybe put 1 EX in it. That way you still have to spend a bit of money for cards and pokemon can make a profit over it imo.

Also I don't think they care if a card is going to be good or not, but i don't know...

That is exactly what I meant >.>

And sadly, I feel the same way. I doubt huge amounts of testing go into these cards before testing.

 

[solo59486]

That is exactly what I meant >.>

And sadly, I feel the same way. I doubt huge amounts of testing go into these cards before testing.

Well you should've just said that lol!

 

[Otaku]

I don't think Vince was worrying about EPO specifically.

Then I pretty much completely misunderstood what he was saying.

His point was that if TPCI's reaction to (relatively) high secondary market prices is to issue a promo every time, then that makes shifting current and future product more difficult for a store owner.

Which again feels like a narrow focus or oversimplification. This thread was about Pokémon Catcher, at least originally. Vince explained how a League Promo would be bad for someone in his situation, but I feel how he presented things glosses over several significant issues:

• Sets that are largely filler.
• Reducing/eliminating a barrier to entry and the impact that can have on sales overall versus sales for older (but still "current" product).
• Pokémon's target customer base versus that of other "more profitable" TCGs.

Nintendo has no moral obligation to give us the cheapest possible card game.

Where did that come from again? Just checking; my point has been that high secondary prices on a 'staple' card can be deleterious to the health of the game, and in response to some comments by psychup2034 I pointed out that barring some special exceptions, the best way for a company to maximize profitability is to find the correct combination of price and market penetration... though I now think my wording was poor.

Generally speaking, you want a price that is as high as you can get without it ultimately lowering your overall profits due loss in sales volume.

I have no clue if price reductions would increase sales volume enough to maintain their profits (they are not a charity after all).

Again, where is this charity stuff coming from? If I implied it, please let me know where.

Is EPO a bad set? Yeah, of course it was, and apart from Catcher, virtually every playable card in it has been released as a promo or theme deck card. We are going to get these bad sets from time to time simply because of the difference in the way cards are released here and in Japan.

Pretty sure there is more to it than that; how many of the cards Japan got in its equivalent set(s) proved useful, even short term?

 

[baby mario]

Again, where is this charity stuff coming from? If I implied it, please let me know where.

Wasn't referring to anything you posted. Just rejecting the notion that Pokemon has some kind of obligation to respond to high secondary market prices with cheap reprints.

Pretty sure there is more to it than that; how many of the cards Japan got in its equivalent set(s) proved useful, even short term?

There wasn't exactly an equivalent Japanese set. EPO is made up of some cards held over from BLW (including Catcher, Thundurus, Tornadus, and Gothitelle), a lot of cards from the Japanese Beginning Set and Structure decks (this is mostly where the bad stuff comes in) and a few cards from future sets (eg: Mandibuzz from Dark Rush).

Because we don't have mini sets like the Japanese (or we didn't until Dragon Vault), all that stuff gets shoved into our regular sets.

 

[vaporeon]

They don't have any obligation to make reprints but in my area, there are no EPO sets at any store I go to. They only go back as far as NDX. I also do not own any catchers and with the set being a year old,I don't see any issue with them making the reprint but at an accessible level.

I can't get Catcher from the set because we don't have it anymore in stores. The only other set to have it DEX but as a SR. A reprint that is easy to get will drop the price of it a ton for us players who don't have the money. Pokemon is a good card game because they do see or at least did see the effects of the secondary market on its game and the player.

 

[baby mario]

TBH vaporeon, it would almost certainly be cheaper to buy 4 Catcher as singles than to keep buying EPO until you pulled them anyway.

I think the Mewtwo and Darkrai tins do prove that they see what the secondary market was doing to the cost of the game and they acted to make those cards cheaper. They are never going to do it for every card though.

 

[vaporeon]

It would be but 60 bucks is a lot for me to put out. Catcher is 18 bucks each on T&T. Some players don't have access to the cards needed to be competitive.

At this point, I would not mind seeing Terrakion in a starter deck because NV is becoming hard to find. We don't need more reprints of Reshiram and Zekrom.

 

[chrataxe]

I'm all about league promos.

Having said that, what is any kids (rather, anyone's) incentive to come play for crappy cards that aren't playable?

Before I get into it too much more...

Here is my issue with Pokemon card prices: if P!P isn't going to take the game serious, we shouldn't have to pay serious prices. Basically, what happens is the competitive players help carry sales (for P!P), then the serious competitive players (read: masters) are the ones that carry the brunt of the burden, while having the least incentive (less prizes, a la Regionals, and the fact that scholarships are aimed at kids).

Compared to other games, we have it pretty good right now. The most valuable card in our game is $15 on the high side (catcher). WoW has the $100+ (you're lucky to get them that cheap) Van Cleef fiasco right now, NOT COOL. And from there, each set has a $40ish epic and a $25 rare. Competitive wow decks are sitting over $700 easily. The funny part is, most of the community loves it since their investment has value. Not so much Van Cleef, but $40 Mazu'kon has most people pretty happy.

Lets be honest, if people aren't willing to drop $10 on catcher, they aren't serious players. I'm not saying they aren't important, I'm saying, the community as a whole should quit trying to make the game revolve around people that aren't in the game. $10-15 catcher is a very, very healthy format. My only concern is that EP as a whole is crap, save two cards.

It was mentioned previously the idea of "spend $x, get this card with it!" I think that ideas is awesome. With WoW's latest set (released this week), you get a promo that is only available by spending $10 in your local store. The reason this is so sweet is because it doesn't take away from Walmart's (read: TPCI's) sales, but increases/encourages local card stores sales, while driving up total sales.

Having said all of that, here are some suggestions of mine:

Have a "sale" promo in local stores mentioned above. Something like "Spend $20 on Pokemon at your local store, get this Pokemon Catcher promo!" Don't get too cheap on it ($15-20), or too specific (just Pokemon products, maybe even new sets in a range), or even better, maybe let it be up to the store...within reason. Say something like "Buy 4 packs, get this promo. You get 3 packs of a new set, 1 pack of an old set (still modified legal), stores choice." That helps them move some of their old product. I know I would buy four packs of BW to get a playset of Catchers along with 12 packs of the new set, much like what happens with tins. It doesn't have to be catcher, any awesome card, really.

Have awesome, awesome league promos that people would kill to get. Just make them something relatively cheap in the first place. Take cards that have a million reprints, then print them as Full Art promos. Cards like Super Scoop UP, Potion, Rare Candy, now even some of the cheaper trainers, like Level Ball, Heavy Ball, Ultraball, etc. No one is buying new sets to get these cards. If they are staples, people will buy them for years to come, meaning they will be promos the stores can profit off of. P!P could even do something like FA staple Pokemon that are cheap and easy to get, ie Eelektrik.